Exclusive use of classic target

[wgnoyes]

... ever try and do 25% of a frigg'n turtle target? Ya have to know geometry to pull it off and then what if some DRL shooting Open arbs it?

Little bit of drift here, but there's actually a diagram to go in the rulebook as part of the Mar 1st update that shows specific ways to precisely mask off a percentage of that target. Maybe George Jones will post it here for us.

Let me see what I can do.

Don't bother; I got it here.

[usmc1974]

Give me a head on my targets. Draw a face on it, put it in a wife-beater, w/ a crack pipe in one hand and a knife in the other.

+2

I want to shoot with ya'll

[gmshtr]

It seems that this topic has generated a bit of discussion since my last visit...on the forums AND in Front Sight (from what I've heard...I'm always a week behind on delivery it seems!).

I'll never give up on my OPINION that using the Classic Targets would help better promote the sport to outsiders looking in. To be clear, outsiders like pro-gun interested hobby shooters, pro-gun potential sponsors, pro-gun potential media, etc. I'm not stupid enough to think that any anti-gun group would ever accept our sport as anything other than a bunch of civilian militia training ourselves how to kill other people...regardless of whether we're shooting sweet fuzzy humanoid targets with big bunny eyes or swinging plates, square glass, or 12" exploding circles (Top Shot shout-out).

Regardless of what targets we use, we're still an organized group of shooters running around with pistols, rifles, and shotguns shooting stuff really fast. The organizations trying to take our rights away just don't care. I knew that when I wrote my opinions in that first Area 4 candidate platform statement in Front Sight, and anyone who thinks it was a PC move...directly or indirectly...is sadly mistaken. Every opinion I have about this game (and others I compete in) is unselfish in nature and for (what I think) would be for the betterment of the sport.

Am I right all the time? Not according to my wife! But I'm glad we have a public forum like this so I can hear other people's opinions and reactions. I value them all, and I certainly understand almost all of your opinions. As the Area 4 Director, and hopefully USPSA president for 2012, YOUR opinions and wishes will dictate the direction of our sport, not mine.

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

Edited July 2, 2010 by gmshtr

[Bryan 45]

As the Area 4 Director, and hopefully USPSA president for 2012, YOUR opinions and wishes will dictate the direction of our sport, not mine.

Phil

Phil, that's the kind of attitude we need. A people's voice!

(still disagreeing with your opinion though!)

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

Am I right all the time? Not according to my wife! [...]

When did she start giving you credit for ANYTHING!?

[cyburg]

If that's the case everyone should use bullseye targets. It has no shape.

I hate that the world is getting so PC about everything.

Besides younger shooter would rather have life size people tagets to shoot at.

Look at call of duty modern warefare 2. Most of the people playing are kids under 15. They will tell you everything about every weapon system.

So would it keep younger shooter away because of the shape of our target? Nope

[George Jones]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

I usually stick with rules issues on this forum and have rarely (if at all) stated a personal opinion on an issue. Time for an exception.

I venture to guess that most anti-gunners know little of our sport (we have enough trouble getting gun owners to know about us). They do not waive the "Anti-USPSA" banner around. They are simply anti-gun. Our Metric target is not their target. Their target is our guns.

Any unilateral move on our part to surrender a part of our game on the hope or expectation of some kind of benevolent acceptance is simply wishful thinking and will be warmly rewarded with continued efforts against our guns. They will eoither want us to surrender even more (after we've demonstrated our willingness to do so) or just continue the legal attacks and harrasment.

Until someone, anyone, shows me irrefutable proof that giving up anything in our sport will bring us world acclaim and riches to our shooters and a warm and fuzzy hug from the Brady Bunch, I'll stand by my opinion.

Sometimes, it just comes down to principles.

[Alaskapopo]

In the most recent issue of Front Sight, I read with interest that Phil Strader is advocating using targets without "heads" in order to make USPSA appear to be more sport than defensive or militia type shooting, especially to outsiders or newcomers to the sport.

What do you guys think ? Would anyone leave the sport if there was a switch to the classic target or a change to the current target to eliminate the upper scoring zone ?

I gotta say that I agree with Mr. Strader on this point. I don't think that a switch to the classic target would hurt the sport or attendance. The rules already don't allow competators to dress in military type clothing, and I can only assume that this is because they do not want to portray the game as anything less than sport.

Furthermore, are we making this sport less attractive to the parents of junior shooters who may not want there children shooting at a target with a head. I have heard the argument that the target doesn't look like any person anyone has ever seen. However, it is a humanoid shape, and if I had a dollar for every time I heard someone at a match refer to the upper scoring zone as a head, I wouldn't be going to work tonight.

Opinions ?

I think it is a bad move. This sport is rooted in defensive firearms use. I think if anything we should go back to that not away from it towards more PC crap.

Pat

[gmshtr]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

This was a joke everyone. Please keep your flame throwers in the closet for July 4th! There's NOTHING "PC" about me or the Pro-Am!

Now, I've got to run...goin' to shake some hands and kiss some babies! DAMN IT! I can't help myself!!!

P © Strader

[Chuck Anderson]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

Make sure you don't have any US Poppers near full size poppers. My wife thinks it looks like parents and children and wants to know why we train to shoot kids.

[jkatz44]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

Make sure you don't have any US Poppers near full size poppers. My wife thinks it looks like parents and children and wants to know why we train to shoot kids.

[Steven Cline]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

Make sure you don't have any US Poppers near full size poppers. My wife thinks it looks like parents and children and wants to know why we train to shoot kids.

Should reply, "Nope, regular sized people and giants at some distance...

Don't laugh too fast. My boss enjoys seeing my shooting videos but one time he saw the Poppers and also asked if we were training to shoot kids. :dunno:

Edited July 4, 2010 by Steven Cline

[JimmyZip]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

Make sure you don't have any US Poppers near full size poppers. My wife thinks it looks like parents and children and wants to know why we train to shoot kids.

Should reply, "Nope, regular sized people and giants at some distance...

Don't laugh too fast. My boss enjoys seeing my shooting videos but one time he saw the Poppers and also asked if we were training to shoot kids. :dunno:

My wife thinks they look like male members somewhat deformed. She actually calls them little and big di%@s!

[gmshtr]

Parents, children, heads on sticks, green clovers, orange stars, yellow moons, blue diamonds...everyone at Pro-Am gets equal treatment. Well, if you're fast enough to get to the end anyway!

[RobMoore]

Sounds magically delicious.

[KGentry]

Subtract the politically correct element of the discussion and what you are left with is one target that hinders an expansion of our sport to the media and thus limiting ourselves in prizes and money for all shooters.

Just my view as a sponsor.

Subtract the Practical element and what you are left with are a bunch of PO'd current customers. Would you rather keep a current customer that is buying your product now, or roll the dice on the phantom customer of the future ?

Just my view as a consumer of products and services.

We don't want to upset people and I know this discussion is emotional but what I wanted to offer is a way to expand our sport to more media and get more money into the sport which would help in the cost of shooting with larger prizes and more money for match directors. I personally don't care what target we shoot but wanted to offer a suggestion of trying something to help the sport.

Edited July 4, 2010 by KGentry

[KGentry]

Subtract the politically correct element of the discussion and what you are left with is one target that hinders an expansion of our sport to the media and thus limiting ourselves in prizes and money for all shooters.

You seem to be stating that as a fact. I would say that at best it is a theory that requires validation.

1. Has any representative of USPSA been told by any TV executive that they would televise our events if we would only use the classic target instead of the metric target?

2. Have other similar events not using humanoid targets (Steel Challenge, ProAm, GSSF) gotten TV time?

3. IPSC has done away with the metric target. When are we going to start seeing IPSC matches on TV?

Since these are questions I might try to answer them for you.

1. Some of our events were televised and yes these things have been told to us. When Local news came to Area4 this year I heard the reporter say we need to show something other than the paper targets so they filmed the all steel stage.

2. I am not sure about GSSF but Steel Challenge and Pro-Am get at least two different TV shows to film every year they are held.

3. Since these are shot oversees the shows are not shown here in the US to my knowledge but the shooters I have talked to from Europe say yes they have TV coverage of some of the larger events.

Like I said in another post I personally don't care what target we shoot but I wanted to expand the sport into more media so we can get more money for match directors and make it more friendly for corporate sponsors to spend money at. Those things will benefit our shooters in so many ways and expand our sport I am hoping. I offer these suggestions with motive to help with the cost of shooting and to attract more people into our sport but if our current shooters are against this like kyle suggests then the sport will stay at it's current media level. This is a hard topic to discuss here in the forum but both sides have great aspects as to why they want each target to be in the sport. Match directors have the ability to use one or the other target now so its not a bad situation to have now - Choice is always good!!

[Vlad]

We don't want to upset people and I know this discussion is emotional but what I wanted to offer is a way to expand our sport ....

But if you change it enough is it even the same sport anymore? Is it worth breaking our sport to make a different one? Note that people are free to shoot IPSC matches in the US instead of USPSA, complete with a lack of cranial constructs. How much of that are we seeing?

[GentlemanJim]

Now, I've got to go organize the Politically Correct Pro-Am!

Phil

I usually stick with rules issues on this forum and have rarely (if at all) stated a personal opinion on an issue. Time for an exception.

I venture to guess that most anti-gunners know little of our sport (we have enough trouble getting gun owners to know about us). They do not waive the "Anti-USPSA" banner around. They are simply anti-gun. Our Metric target is not their target. Their target is our guns.

Any unilateral move on our part to surrender a part of our game on the hope or expectation of some kind of benevolent acceptance is simply wishful thinking and will be warmly rewarded with continued efforts against our guns. They will eoither want us to surrender even more (after we've demonstrated our willingness to do so) or just continue the legal attacks and harrasment.

Until someone, anyone, shows me irrefutable proof that giving up anything in our sport will bring us world acclaim and riches to our shooters and a warm and fuzzy hug from the Brady Bunch, I'll stand by my opinion.

Sometimes, it just comes down to principles.

I dont see this post as an Opinion...Its cold hard fact!!!!

I am stunned that people continue to think that surrendering to so called PC points of view will in ANY way contribute to our sport

The people you wish to impress with your fuzzy and cute little target will NEVER stop seeking their goal!!

So put me in the camp of folks that JUST WILL NOT surrender our rights

My Firearms company is a Very small fish in the big sea...but I will Never sponsor a club or match that goes down this road .

And I would work DAY and NIGHT to convince other industry people and sponsors to do the same!

Today is the Fourth of July....and it does not put me in a mood to SURRENDER ANYTHING!

Jim

[KGentry]

I am with you 100% Jim! I refuse to give up any rights concerning guns and ownership. We all know we support shooters 100%! My idea is to find a way to bring more media in with money so we can use that to expand our sport and get more people shooting!! I am sure we can find the way!!

[Flexmoney]

Subtract the politically correct element of the discussion and what you are left with is one target that hinders an expansion of our sport to the media and thus limiting ourselves in prizes and money for all shooters.

Just my view as a sponsor.

Subtract the Practical element and what you are left with are a bunch of PO'd current customers. Would you rather keep a current customer that is buying your product now, or roll the dice on the phantom customer of the future ?

Just my view as a consumer of products and services.

We don't want to upset people and I know this discussion is emotional but what I wanted to offer is a way to expand our sport to more media and get more money into the sport which would help in the cost of shooting with larger prizes and more money for match directors. I personally don't care what target we shoot but wanted to offer a suggestion of trying something to help the sport.

What is standing in the way of that now?

Want to run a match with the turtle targets and square steel plates?... You can do that now, right?

Nobody is going to change our image by switching targets. People (on the outside) can't tell the difference between an IDPA humanoid target and an USPSA humanoid target. Nor, a humanoid target at some unaffiliated match.

Google searches and Internet videos aren't going to disappear...no matter what targets we use. The "image" is out there...good or bad... representative or not.

BTW...I am one of those Match Directors. I choose to run USPSA matches. I can choose to run them with any of the legal targets...that fit my needs.

I've put a lot of thought into various formats over the years. Some of which could be more media friendly. Little of that has to do with target appearance, from my perspective.

[TDean]

The idea smacks of progressivism.

I'd like to think that USPSA is one place in America where tradition is safe.

[JThompson]

As long as their are guns involved, positive media involvement, will be few and far. That is the long and short of it.

JT

Edited July 6, 2010 by JThompson

[KGentry]

I thought I would never see a show about shooting on main stream TV. The History channel was a great surprise and I am glad they are doing the Top Shot show. Maybe we can slowly get our shooting on more channels. You can almost feel the anti gunners stomachs grumbling.

Edited July 7, 2010 by KGentry

[ntphd]

I really like the USPSA target with a head . . . um, I mean "upper scoring zone." Hate going back and forth between these and the IPSC turtle targets. Okay, truth is I just hate the turtle targets.

IMHO, political correctness gets a bum rap. PC, at least the good kind, can be boiled down to the following: if people stop *saying* stupid, vicious things about other people, maybe eventually they'll stop *doing* stupid, vicious things to other people.

I imagine everyone here is on this forum because we love to shoot and participate in shooting games like USPSA and IDPA. Like others have said, there are some who fear guns and loathe those of us who love guns. They're not going to change that opinion because we change targets.