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Exclusive use of classic target


mdschappell

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In the most recent issue of Front Sight, I read with interest that Phil Strader is advocating using targets without "heads" in order to make USPSA appear to be more sport than defensive or militia type shooting, especially to outsiders or newcomers to the sport.

What do you guys think ? Would anyone leave the sport if there was a switch to the classic target or a change to the current target to eliminate the upper scoring zone ?

I gotta say that I agree with Mr. Strader on this point. I don't think that a switch to the classic target would hurt the sport or attendance. The rules already don't allow competators to dress in military type clothing, and I can only assume that this is because they do not want to portray the game as anything less than sport.

Furthermore, are we making this sport less attractive to the parents of junior shooters who may not want there children shooting at a target with a head. I have heard the argument that the target doesn't look like any person anyone has ever seen. However, it is a humanoid shape, and if I had a dollar for every time I heard someone at a match refer to the upper scoring zone as a head, I wouldn't be going to work tonight.

Opinions ?

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I dont think I would leave the sport, but Id sure hate to see a progression like that. I like having the variety and seeing both at a match. I personally dont see it as a "head", but i guess i can sorta see that POV.

Lets think about IDPA for a minute with regards to this too: Defensive Pitol being the key words. How can we practice defensive pistol techiques without the current targets. i dount the world will be invaded by turtle shaped aliens anytime soon.

It seems like a move like this is being more "Politically Correct" (which i personally hate trying to do) than actually trying to advance our sport...just my $0.02 on the issue.

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+1

I know there will be disagreement on this question, but I believe we should use the classic target and headless poppers.

Yes, I understand the origins of the sport, but it is a sport. I also hate to bow to political correctness, but I cannot see a down side. It would eliminate any perception of shooting at a humanoid target,and just might remove obstacles from potential sponsors from the non-shooting community. While we may never see a match or stage sponsored by Panasonic or Sony, who knows? Sponsors may be interested in less mainstream activities.

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I like that fact that we can use both; I would advocate using it for Nationals matches that immediately precede an IPSC World Shoot. IPSC uses these targets exclusively now and it would help our shooters that attend to get some competition experience with them prior to the match.

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I wonder

When I get new juniors in, keep in mind these kids and parents dont come from the shooting sports.

I tell them im not teaching them how to win any gun fights, but how to play a sport.

now, hurry up and get those tgts with the heads and put them up.

Its also where we came from.

Im a torn man

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Didn't think I would ever say this but no head for me. :P I might be in the minority but I think of our sport as a game and I think of my pistol in the same way I would think of a set of golf clubs.

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I like that fact that we can use both; I would advocate using it for Nationals matches that immediately precede an IPSC World Shoot. IPSC uses these targets exclusively now and it would help our shooters that attend to get some competition experience with them prior to the match.

I agree. I like the use of both targets. No matter how PC we try to become, we will never satisfy those who don't like what we do.

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I hate the idea.

Phil's a buddy of mine, but I disagree with him on this.

I despise political correctness. I think that our sport will always have that image to the PC'ers.

If we 'shoot' things that dont look like guns, without gunpowder, at flower shaped targets, someone will think we're violence mongers.

So, the hell with them, we're xxxxxx if we cave in.

Give an inch, they'll take a mile.

This is strictly my opinion and not a criticism of anyone else's.

I see the other sides points, I just dont agree with them.

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Sony [playstation] wouldn't sponsor kids shooting at pretend people?

a majority of the kids we wouldn't want to "expose" to shooting at something vaugly human will go home and shoot people playing Call of Duty or Halo or something similar.

The olymics have degenerated into ice-capades and gymnastics. Do we really want to pander to that same PC drivel? Is it so bad to entertain our inner warrior, which is where the olympics games started? Is it really a win for the shooting sports or broader community?

Remove all hints of "practical" or "defensive" [idpa] and we might as well play paintball. Afer all, who needs a gun when you can use a "marker?"

Would I quit if we went all round targets? No. Would I be happy about it? Hell no.

The world is PC enough. Shooting is PC enough. If people don't like our sport or its origins it they can shoot steel or bowling pins.

-rvb

edit: ps. I like occassional use of the round targets. They are challenging w/ a smaller A zone. They psych a lot of people out. But I think they should be the exception, not the norm.

-rvb

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I hate the idea.

Phil's a buddy of mine, but I disagree with him on this.

I despise political correctness. I think that our sport will always have that image to the PC'ers.

If we 'shoot' things that dont look like guns, without gunpowder, at flower shaped targets, someone will think we're violence mongers.

So, the hell with them, we're xxxxxx if we cave in.

Give an inch, they'll take a mile.

This is strictly my opinion and not a criticism of anyone else's.

I see the other sides points, I just dont agree with them.

I concur. Any sport involving guns bothers a lot of people. We will never make them happy. Yes this is a game but I have to admit, in my opinion two shots grouped tight in the A zone equals a good clean..... "score".

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The rules already don't allow competators to dress in military type clothing,

I researched this quite a bit recently. A new youngish shooter was showing up in BDU pants and I pointed out to him that it is frowned upon. But I had it clarified to me that the rules do not prohibit military clothing per say. I don't have the rule book with me here at work but I remember words being vague about not bringing discredit to the sport. The RM's and other NROI types I spoke with really could not clearly say that means military clothing is illegal. Again, it is just frowned upon.

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I like the option of using both. It is a pistol competition and having a head or A/B zone is okay with me. I also like the classic targets as a change of pace. Truth be told, I find them a little easier to target.

All this talking has made me decide to use classic targets on the stage I set up at our next match. B) I think I'll make it a total weak hand shooting stage as well. :devil:

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The rules already don't allow competators to dress in military type clothing,

I researched this quite a bit recently. A new youngish shooter was showing up in BDU pants and I pointed out to him that it is frowned upon. But I had it clarified to me that the rules do not prohibit military clothing per say. I don't have the rule book with me here at work but I remember words being vague about not bringing discredit to the sport. The RM's and other NROI types I spoke with really could not clearly say that means military clothing is illegal. Again, it is just frowned upon.

Older rule books did specifically state that camo wasnt permitted...then camo became simple fashion, and the rule changed.

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I can be a PC as the next guy when it's called for, but I prefer it when people just "lighten up" a bit and stop trying to paint the world a uniform gray.

PC aside, I don't mind the turtle targets and actually like them for some things, particularly on rapid run and gun stages. But there are a lot of cases where the "head" can be used creatively to make things more interesting. For example, at a recent match, a stage had a popper that triggered two "out and back" targets several feet apart. You could try and hit both if you were really fast, but 99% of the people just picked the one that was easiest to get when it was out and took the head shot on the other one when it was back. It was tough, but it was different and a challenge. Same thing for putting targets close to no-shoots in such a way that people could stand in one place and take a few head-shots if they were good enough or move a few steps along and have the body exposed. You pay your money and you take your chances - it's part of the game.

On a side note, it has occurred to me more than once that having the scoring targets brown and the no-shoots white could be seen as being very non-PC, but I don't see too many people pushing for a change in target colors.

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I think the PC folks aren't going to participate in gun sports, period. They're certainly not going to participate in "practical shooting" or "defensive pistol". I don't want to antagonize them, but I'd hate to lose the great stages and targets where the only shot is a head shot, or Max Traps that make you choose between two quick shots to the center (risking a no shoot) or a slower head shot. Its a matter of strategy and knowing your abilities, not of choosing between torso and head shot.

If we were going to make a change, I'd like to see B shots somehow worth more than C, but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms.

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If we as an American competitive shooting community start worrying about being PC, then quite simply we have lost. I am very dissapointed that this is even debatable. We need to stick to our guns (so to speak) and make a stand, what's next? Our guns look too much like guns, for Gods sake...oh no, I brought God into this, sorry NOT!! :angry2:

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On a side note, it has occurred to me more than once that having the scoring targets brown and the no-shoots white could be seen as being very non-PC, but I don't see too many people pushing for a change in target colors.

LOL! I was told that my home club once hosted a Level II match many years ago with a science fiction theme. One of the stages had the Star Wars storm troopers as the targets. Of course, storm troopers only wear white. :-) I heard it took a bit of back and forth with NROI about what a "typical cardboard color" is, but the stage was eventually approved.

No shoot's don't have to be white, they just have to be a different color from the scoring targets. (4.1.3)

People at my club typically figure out it's one of my stage designs when the classic targets are set out. I do it not for political correctness, but rather for variety since typically the other 6 stages will be using the IPSC targets.

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Switch to the classice targets and then we'll get complaints whenever someone refers to it as a Turtle from another group against game hunting!!!! You will never please everyone, keep the game what it is, keep people shooting safely and competitivly and move on.....

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