Should 9mm major be recognized in Limited 10?

[JThompson]

Guilty until proven innocent?

Why not? there's no advantage in it for those that choose to do it.

Much ado from my point of view...

JT

[staudacher]

What about people who currently only shoot Steel Challenge with custom 9mm guns? Their options are to shoot Limited and Limited 10 minor as it stands right now. By allowing 9mm major in Limited 10, we will have a place for custom built 9mm guns.

If they are using 9mm gun custom built for steel challenge it is not very likely that the gun could stand up to 9mm major.

I would be all for allowing 357SIG scored as major in limited. 1) Factory ammo can make major 2)They would have no capacity advantage over 40.

Edited April 18, 2010 by staudacher

[LPatterson]

I think it would be nice to go a full two years without Division rule changes. 9major has a Division to play in now - keep it that way. The same goes for the 357Sig it is a purpose built cartridge for a certain Law Enforcement job - let it stay there.

[Flexmoney]

Slippery Slope.

But IF we were to be 100% sure that this would NEVER migrate to Limited, then I would not have a problem. However, I do not think that we can be 100% sure.

+1

There is no compelling reason to do so.

Leave well enough alone.

+2

What about people who currently only shoot Steel Challenge with custom 9mm guns? Their options are to shoot Limited and Limited 10 minor as it stands right now. By allowing 9mm major in Limited 10, we will have a place for custom built 9mm guns.

Huh? Who? I know a thing or two about who is shooting what in Steel Challenge. I don't see a pool of potential customers being held back. Who am I missing?

Slippery slope...even though it's a silly position, people will use it to push their agenda.

+3

When we make a rule change I think it needs to (generally) be to clarify something, fix a loophole or attract new shooters in significant numbers. I can't think of how this change would really do any of the above.

+4 !!!

With the high (low) wages that educators are paid, and the cost of a doctorate program, I never see myself buying new bullets/dies/brass/guns to shoot anything other than 9mm.

Sounds like you'd be well off with a 40 cal Glock and an aftermarket barrel....then cast your own lead bullets. That is the money saving option (which I have considered). Of course, that means washing your hands...and not shooting too close to Keen, the Lead Hater (<<<which believe is a proper title)

You can go major or Minor with the 40. It is great in Production, Limited-10, Limited, and some like it for Open. Lots of options. (you can always practice with lead and save jacketed for big matches)

Brass, primers and powder are nearly identical in price$.

[P.E. Kelley]

NO

[Jman]

Everything that currently makes major in Lim, L10, SS can be purchased factory standard at most any gun store. Major 9 does not fall into that category.

Very good point in my estimation.

[twodownzero]

I don't know why we even still have a Limited 10 division.

If anything could use 9mm major, it's Single Stack, where major is limited to 8 rounds anyway and there'd be no advantage. In fact, 9mm major would probably kick more than .40 or .45 and thus be a disadvantage.

[Chris Keen]

Let's see ... How can I put this?

Nyet ... No ... Nein ... and Forget it.

That's what I was thinking. I don't see the big advantage for the sport, much less the division.

What about people who currently only shoot Steel Challenge with custom 9mm guns? Their options are to shoot Limited and Limited 10 minor as it stands right now. By allowing 9mm major in Limited 10, we will have a place for custom built 9mm guns.

Why can't they keep shooting minor?

I think most people who currently only shoot Steel Challenge with custom 9mm guns, do so because they have chosen to not shoot USPSA. Does anyone think there is a significant number of such people who would rework their guns, and loads, and become regular competitors?

Why can't they shoot 40's like the rest of us?

In fact, 9mm major would probably kick more than .40 or .45 and thus be a disadvantage.

Without the benefit of a comp to lessen the kick, hell yes it would!

[Nik Habicht]

I don't know why we even still have a Limited 10 division.

Because it's the best division for a whole bunch of guns that show up at club matches, guns that simply are hampered in other divisions.....

We regularly get folks who show up with 13 round .40 or .45 caliber guns and factory ammo --- neither entirely appropriate for Limited or Production. Or the guy who shows up with a Sig 220.....

[chendersby]

As I have stated before, if I had anything to say about, and I do, I would vote no.

[-JQ-]

It would just leave more un-scroungable brass lying around...

Is this just another dodge to keep you from picking up your brass PB?

[kgunz11]

I find it hard to belive someone who can afford a custom built 9mm gun for steel challenge wouldn't find a way to build a gun in .40 or .45 if they were serious about the sport.

Or buy a Glock 35, which isn't real expensive. In Lim 10, all you need is a barrel in .40 and some mags to be legal for the guy that has the Glock 34, which IS currently the most popular Production Division gun.

I'd vote against letting 9 score Major in Lim10, but we let it in Open. For simplicity, for those that want to shoot a 9mm in Lim10, accept the minor PF or buy an appropriate gun that's legal for the Division.

[twodownzero]

I don't know why we even still have a Limited 10 division.

Because it's the best division for a whole bunch of guns that show up at club matches, guns that simply are hampered in other divisions.....

We regularly get folks who show up with 13 round .40 or .45 caliber guns and factory ammo --- neither entirely appropriate for Limited or Production. Or the guy who shows up with a Sig 220.....

I did that same thing at my first match.

I shot production. And I think that's the best place to put those people.

[Team Amish 1]

I don't know why we even still have a Limited 10 division.

Because it's the best division for a whole bunch of guns that show up at club matches, guns that simply are hampered in other divisions.....

We regularly get folks who show up with 13 round .40 or .45 caliber guns and factory ammo --- neither entirely appropriate for Limited or Production. Or the guy who shows up with a Sig 220.....

Would it not be nice to allow .40/.45 as Major in Production as long as only 10rounds are in the mag after the beep and the gun mod's are restricted?

I don't mean to be political here, but is Lim10 not, if I understand it correctly, a Division that was installed as a response to legislature from a time when mag capacity restrictions were seen as "en vogue"?. I may be wrong, of course.

On the other hand, I would not be afraid of those 9 Major iron sight guns. Shooters with "antiques" or fragile 9x19's are most likely not

1) able to load major loads because they mahy not be that much into it, otherwise they'd shoot a different gun

2) they'd probably still buy their white box ammo at the Mega-Lo-Mart, and shoot Minor.

Please don't hit me with a stick now, it's just my opinion.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Team Amish 1

[JThompson]

I voted yes because I think that unless there is an advantage over what is currently being used I see no reason to prevent it. You have a lot of people that don't want it "because' and to me, that's not a valid reason to exclude something. It would not create and arms race, it would not be an advantage, if anything, it would be harder to shoot, so why all the reticence? Most of us don't even shoot limited 10. I know if I was shooting it I would choose a 40 because the recoil is so much better in forty than it would be in a 9mm load.

I really don't give two shakes either way as I don't shoot it, but having no dog in the hunt and looking empirically, I see no reason to prevent it.

I never did well with "because I said so." when I was a child and even less so now.

[twodownzero]

Would it not be nice to allow .40/.45 as Major in Production as long as only 10rounds are in the mag after the beep and the gun mod's are restricted?

I think that'd be a move in the right direction, but it would be opposed by many people and would never happen.

It never made any sense to me from day one in this sport to score minor and major in every division but one.

Seems that one of the most basic principles of practical shooting is missing from production, and nobody cares because they're resistant to change.

I'd also like to see the 10 round limit lifted in production. If they're interested in leveling the playing field, set it at 15. Leaving it at 10 does nothing to encourage new shooters.

If I were a new shooter today and showed up with a Glock 17, P226, USP, XD, M&P, etc., I'd probably shoot LIMITED just because most new shooters have a hard enough time with the shooting part, and eliminating complex stage breakdown helps.

I know that my view will never be adopted so I usually don't bring it up. But I personally think we should eliminate L-10 completely, perhaps impose a minimum trigger pull weight for production, and consolidate L-10 and Production into a production division that scores major and minor.

I can also see a lot of problems that might be caused by that, so in a way I'm glad my vision would never be adopted. I would like to see L-10 eliminated, though, and I would like to see a very different production division.

[Sarge]

No

[Ben Stoeger]

I am not aware of a big push to get 9mm major into lim 10 and I am surprised people would so passionately try to prevent it.

[Flexmoney]

It scares me. (as an RO)

I don't trust any of y'all to load it.

I stand back from Open guns.

[twodownzero]

I should also mention that I think the point about heavy bullets + fast powder is a good one. I'm not sure that it'd be safe to load 9mm Luger into major territory with fast(er) burning powders. .38 Super, sure. 9mm? Probably not. In Open it's different, because the goal is to find the slowest powder that will make major and run your comp.

So it could be a bad idea even if there's no good reason not to allow it from a competitive standpoint.

[G-ManBart]

I don't know why we even still have a Limited 10 division.

If anything could use 9mm major, it's Single Stack, where major is limited to 8 rounds anyway and there'd be no advantage. In fact, 9mm major would probably kick more than .40 or .45 and thus be a disadvantage.

There are states that have 10-round magazine limits like HI, MA, D.C., NY, and CA. Those folks can't compete in Limited with 10 round mags, hence L-10. There are also a lot of people that like to shoot both SS and L-10 using the same gun, with different mags. So, I don't foresee the division going anywhere.

If someone has a 9mm 1911, they can shoot Minor and have a two round advantage. Sure, they lose Major scoring, but they do gain something back...it's probably a wash for most folks. R,

[smokshwn]

It scares me. (as an RO)

I don't trust any of y'all to load it.

I stand back from Open guns.

Me too......9 major is evil incarnate, lord knows there has never been limited .40's blow up

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Why not just make Limited 10 minor and call it a day? That way any pistol could play together in there and be safe doing it. Just a thought from a tired guy Thanks, Eric

[G-ManBart]

Would it not be nice to allow .40/.45 as Major in Production as long as only 10rounds are in the mag after the beep and the gun mod's are restricted?

I think that'd be a move in the right direction, but it would be opposed by many people and would never happen.

It never made any sense to me from day one in this sport to score minor and major in every division but one.

Seems that one of the most basic principles of practical shooting is missing from production, and nobody cares because they're resistant to change. The most basic principle you seem to be suggesting is missing is "power"....it's still there, it's just not Major. You still can't shoot a total powderpuff like .38 wadcutter ammo. Resistant to change? Production is a pretty new division...there was a change to create it!

I'd also like to see the 10 round limit lifted in production. If they're interested in leveling the playing field, set it at 15. Leaving it at 10 does nothing to encourage new shooters. There are a LOT of guns that are/can be competitive in Production that don't have 15 round magazines. Anybody new with one of those guns would be at a distinct disadvantage.

If I were a new shooter today and showed up with a Glock 17, P226, USP, XD, M&P, etc., I'd probably shoot LIMITED just because most new shooters have a hard enough time with the shooting part, and eliminating complex stage breakdown helps. Sure, let them show up, shoot Limited with full mags for a couple of matches so they get an idea what's going on, but then they can switch and download their mags, shoot Production knowing they're on an equal field with everybody else in the division...works perfectly with no changes.

I know that my view will never be adopted so I usually don't bring it up. But I personally think we should eliminate L-10 completely, perhaps impose a minimum trigger pull weight for production, and consolidate L-10 and Production into a production division that scores major and minor.

I can also see a lot of problems that might be caused by that, so in a way I'm glad my vision would never be adopted. I would like to see L-10 eliminated, though, and I would like to see a very different production division.

Doing most of the things you suggest would set us back about 10-15 years and the playing field wasn't as level then as it is now. There is a reason and history on why we got to where we're at right now, and the sport pretty much has a place for everyone the way it is and that wasn't always the case.

If you allow Major in Production virtually everybody that's competitive WILL switch to a .40, and folks starting out that show up with a G17 will think their equipment is at a disadvantage (it will be, but it won't matter for a while). That isn't conducive to bringing in, or retaining, new shooters. R,

[JThompson]

It scares me. (as an RO)

I don't trust any of y'all to load it.

I stand back from Open guns.

Me too......9 major is evil incarnate, lord knows there has never been limited .40's blow up

I was thinking the same thing.