What does your club do about DQs?

[dmshozer1]

We are trying to attract new shooters.

A discussion came up about DQing a first time shooter.

The feeling was that if we DQ the person, they might not come back.

I give the safety course to new shooters.I explain right up front that

the safety rules will be enforced!

What are your feelings?

Thanks

[Steve J]

The DQ is an educational tool, not a punitive one. Whether or not the shooter learns from his mistake and returns can, but not necessarily will be effected by the way the DQ is administered.

Stop the shooter. Have him unload, show clear and holster. Pass the timer to someone else. Then take the shooter aside and calmly explain what he did wrong and why he can't continue. Suggest ways to improve and sincerely invite him back to the next match.

Now having said that, some people are just unsafe. Do you really want unsafe shooters at your matches to boost numbers? If you ignore safety violations, you may keep some new, unsafe shooters, but I guarantee that you will lose your experienced safe shooters. I certainly don't want to shoot at clubs with a bunch of unsafe shooters that aren't being educated and brought under control.

The best way to attract and keep good shooters.

1. maintain a high quality website that is current. Update it weekly.

2. have a point of contact who will answer emails and phone calls.

3. post results to your website the same day as the match or the next day at the latest.

4. run fun matches that follow the rules of the game.

5. run safe matches.

Interested shooters will find you.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Steve J

[Flexmoney]

We are trying to attract new shooters.

A discussion came up about DQing a first time shooter.

The feeling was that if we DQ the person, they might not come back.

I give the safety course to new shooters.I explain right up front that

the safety rules will be enforced!

What are your feelings?

Thanks

If you don't DQ the unsafe shooters (or actions), then the safe shooters might not come back! Which do you want?

There are lots of things for the new IDPA shooter to have to remember. Best to stress the safety aspects over all else...in a good safety briefing, and such.

[Alan550]

SAFETY, FIRST, LAST AND ALWAYS! Yes, DQ the new ones, the same as everyone else. It only takes a split second for someone to get hurt or dead in our games, and there should be no second chances for a screwup on any given day. Since you've already done the safety course, it's up to the shooters to obey all the safety rules, no matter what. Let one slide and you're in lawsuit territory if someone else repeats what the first one got away with and there's an injury or death involved.

Just my $.02, but DQ 'em every time with an explanation as to why.

Alan~^~

[davidwiz]

We are trying to attract new members to our club. We shoot both games. IDPA and USPSA.

At a meeting,some members said that if we DQ a first time shooter, they might not come back.

I give the safety course.The new shooters are told that the safety rules will be enforced!

What are your feelings?

Thanks

If a club is relaxing the safety rules b/c they are afraid of upsetting someone, I don't want to shoot there.

[Strick]

I would rather not have an unsafe shooter not come back to shoot with the club than have a another shooter not be able to do anything again because they are dead. Saftey should always, always, always be the primary concern.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Strick

[Pat Miles]

Tell the new shooters at the safety course that the safety rules are written in stone. The shooters who understand the importance of the safety rules will understand and appreciate the enforcement, the shooters who don't understand will not and those are the folks you DON'T want back. Ask yourself, what will cause the total demise of a club...slow growth or a safety accident possibly followed by a law suit? Another thought... by covering the rules of safety and their consequences you and your club have just opened yourself up to huge legal problems by letting them slide if there is an accident. Just the reality of things. DO THE RIGHT THING!

CYa,

Pat

[fastarget]

We usually follow close and try to talk them through difficult spots, but the rules do apply to all.

For a first timer, we will DQ the stage, have a safety refresher (it is a learing curve) and allow to shoot the rest of the stages "safely", another DQ at the same event will send you home.

For an experienced shooter, they are gone for the day after the first infraction.

[twodownzero]

Having witnessed several DQable offenses in the last 3 days, and not seen a DQ issued, I have zero tolerance for stupidity. When the RO says "finger" followed by, "muzzle, muzzle, muzzle," a DQ is in order.

I don't care if it's your first day. A DQ is not discretionary.

Edited February 9, 2010 by twodownzero

[bbbean]

We are trying to attract new members to our club. We shoot both games. IDPA and USPSA.

At a meeting,some members said that if we DQ a first time shooter, they might not come back.

I give the safety course.The new shooters are told that the safety rules will be enforced!

What are your feelings?

Thanks

They're right - DQ a new shooter the first time out, and you've probably lost a shooter. The solution is to avoid DQs before they happen. Take the time to walk new shooters through the rules, ride them a little closer with warnings, and coach them a bit. If possible, assign an experienced shooter or RO to each new shooter.

[Ahab]

Yeah, if someone does something unsafe that should result in a DQ, then DQ them by all means. However, I think that an explanation is always in order for a newbie - tell them what safety rule they broke, why they were DQ'd, and if their attitude is good then you've probably helped to create a safe shooter. If they get huffy about it, oh well.

At the Indiana State IDPA match, I had to issue my very first DQ as an SO, and I hated to do it, but at the same time the guy that I DQ'd muzzled about 4 range staff and gone clear past the designated muzzle safe points. DQ'ing someone sucks, but if you get lax on the safety rules, someone might actually get killed. As fun and safe as we all try to be, guns are dangerous when handled negligently.

[Nik Habicht]

We are trying to attract new members to our club. We shoot both games. IDPA and USPSA.

At a meeting,some members said that if we DQ a first time shooter, they might not come back.

I give the safety course.The new shooters are told that the safety rules will be enforced!

What are your feelings?

Thanks

They're right - DQ a new shooter the first time out, and you've probably lost a shooter. The solution is to avoid DQs before they happen. Take the time to walk new shooters through the rules, ride them a little closer with warnings, and coach them a bit. If possible, assign an experienced shooter or RO to each new shooter.

Not necessarily --- but it takes some effort to retain a shooter who dq's at his first match. That effort starts with how the subject of disqualification is introduced in the first place, during the new shooter briefing. Explain it well there -- it's non-punitive in intent, rather it's protective, most will at some point, etc. --- and you've laid a foundation that an experienced RO or SO can build on during the actual dq. Assigning new competitors an experienced mentor on the squad can help as well....

[Nik Habicht]

If you don't DQ the unsafe shooters (or actions), then the safe shooters might not come back! Which do you want?

There are lots of things for the new IDPA shooter to have to remember. Best to stress the safety aspects over all else...in a good safety briefing, and such.

I'm with Flex and a couple (most really?) of others --- I don't want to shoot at an unsafe club....

[Chris Christian]

+1 to Nik, and others on the subject of new shooters. A lot depends on how the DQ is issued (attitude and justification), and what explanation comes with it. If that is adequately explained in advance it should solve a lot of problems. A new shooter squad with experienced ... and extra... SOs is also a help in preventing them. Both clubs I shoot at in FL place new shooters in that environment and DQs are rare. The ones that do get DQed are not normally people you'd want around you with a loaded gun anyway, so I don't really care if they come back. If they do I (as a SO who often runs a new shooter squad) watch 'em like a hawk. As for building a club... First Coast IDPA in Jacksonville had 102 shooters at their 6 Feb 2010 club match... and that was not a record turnout. Just a couple of years ago, 45 shooters was a good turnout. You build a club through interesting COFs, friendly atmosphere, adherence to safety rules without a Range Nazi mentality... and getting scores posted quickly on a continuously updated web site. Just like running a successful business.

Chris Christian

[Nik Habicht]

Mod note: Multiple threads combined, and duplicate posts deleted....

[NoSteel]

I've been shooting for only 2 years now. I have seen a new shooter DQ'ed on his first day on the first stage and a Master class shooter DQ'ed the same day. Both understood what they had done wrong and both stayed around to help the club complete the days activities because they know what kind of club members we have. They are still around for every match. If the club is run well, everyone there should know what their responsibilities are and be grown up enough to handle the required actions taken when there is an infraction. This is a game that requires responsibility probably more than any other because lives are in jeopardy if the rules are broken. Again, if the club is run correctly, people will want to return and shoot with a safe group of competitors every time. If you really want to keep a new member around, make sure they know safety is the priority, have them go slow and take their time, respect the other shooters and above all have fun.

[Corey]

From the new guy's POV:

If i do something worthy of a DQ that is dangerous in some way to either myself or others around me, stop me immediately tell me what I did wrong and explain why i got the DQ, etc. Ive only shot one match and it was a very small indoor match. i am VERY safety conscious thanks to growing up in the atmosphere I did with my dad teaching me about guns and hunting and thus am very careful and know how to handle guns. That beign said, Im sure there will be a DQ someday, like someone said, there are two kinds of shooters, thos who have and those who will.

If you lose a new shooter after a DQ then they weren't too dedicated to it to begin with. If they deserve the DQ, give it to'em. all day, every day.

[Aristotle]

Last year I had to DQ a new shooter at a local USPSA match, after he pulled out his gun with people down range taping. He never returned, but continued to shoot IDPA at our home club. It seemed like he ducked me when I did run into him at IDPA matches, or kinda looked away when I would see him. I finally ran into him while headed to the port-a-potty and talked with him about the incident, which was already a few months behind us.

It really helped to explain to him that everyone can and will do it, and that I myself, have DQ'd as a new shooter. That helped him relate a little bit, knowing I knew exactly how he felt, and the reason for my actions.

In actually I think the shooter felt more embarrassed, and not resentful. He vowed to come back to my matches.

[Dan Hefta]

I have witnessed very a respectable RO at a local match stop a new shooter after a DQable offence, he had him unload and show clear, then he had a very stern disscussion with the new shooter, scored the stage and did not DQ him because he was new. And I have seen the rules bend a lot more than that without breaking, I have made the wrong call myself on more than one occation. Once again the "human factor" is very much a part of our sport.(No instant replay)

[Aglifter]

I think it depends on why. I've shot courses (which in my opinion shouldn't have been designed this way) that required going to about a 170 to get around an obstacle, and shoot a target, so I would think some leniency would be in order there, if a shooter broke 180 -- essentially if you turned from the first target, and walked, instinctually, around the obstacle, you'd be at about 185. Likewise, I think the "finger" warnings are OK. The same w. sweeping their leg the first time or two they draw. However, if they sweep other shooters, or aim their muzzle over the berm, and ND, etc, then I would support an immediate DQ.

There are some rules that people aren't going to be too aware of their first time in a match, and others which anyone w. a modest exposure to safe gun handling should be aware of.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Aglifter

[lugnut]

Should the feelings of one out weigh the safety of others? We are not playing jacks.

Edited February 10, 2010 by lugnut

[BlackSabbath]

I haven't shot IDPA in a long time...

I do USPSA, ICORE and steel.

One point I'd like to make is this: If you don't DQ a new shooter, and just "let it slide, " and on the next stage they have another safety infraction and kill someone, do you really want to be the person that let that happen?

[fred5876r]

I was DQ'd on the first stage the first time I tried to shoot a USPSA match. I was having an issue with my gun and apparently I swept my other arm. I was completely unaware of having done so. I figured I was done for that stage only but when I tried to report for the next stage I learned the bitter truth. There was a female shooter who was not the SO but seemed to be one of the local officials and she seemed VERY concerned I would become discouraged and not return, which was nice. She kept saying it happens to everyone, it had happened to her, etc. I think that approach is important. I have not had occasion to return to that club (some distance from home) but I have shot several IDPA events since and plan to continue with both.

[Strick]

I think it depends on why. I've shot courses (which in my opinion shouldn't have been designed this way) that required going to about a 170 to get around an obstacle, and shoot a target, so I would think some leniency would be in order there, if a shooter broke 180 --

There is no 180 rule in IDPA so it is up to the match director and stage designer to set muzzle safe points.

Leniency on safety should never be given in my opinion. If you let them slide only to DQ them later you have effectively trained them to be less safe. DQ them but take the time to explain why and work with them to educate them on being safe.

I find the hardest part with new shooters is the bad habits they have picked up by shooting on a static firing line. They are used to shooting and putting the gun down then reloading a mag and shooting again. Many of them don't have the ability to practice the type of practical shooting we do at most ranges. I watch them try to put the gun on the ground on reloads, squat down on reloads, try to reholster as soon as the last shot is fired and other various bad habits. As SO's and experienced shooters we need to educate them and stop them from unsafe acts the best we can. This not only makes them and the rest of safe but it also makes them better shooters in our sport.

Heck, I had one guy asking me when I did a new shooter brief why he needed to take his finger off the trigger when moving. Needless to say I watched him closely.

[lugnut]

This is the reason... IMO... that new shooters should go to at least a few practices before going to a match. It gives you time to get acclimated with the rules of the game. It's best to start learning in a practice IMO. Personally at a match I have less time to spend with noobs compared to a practice as well- whether as a spectator or RO/SO.