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Is major falling out of favor in Limited

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A Limited (IPSC Standard) gun has enough rounds in the magazine to let you reload somewhere where it does not lose you time. Or, the better points from any C or D hits will outweigh the fraction of a second that you might lose.

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14 hours ago, RevolverJockey said:

 

What I would like to see is a production match with people shooting production guns. Seriously, $2,000 purpose built factory "race" guns aren't exactly what I think of when I hear the word production. I think of a novice competitor with their bone stock production assembly line gun and some uncle mikes belt holsters. Where is the actual production division?

 

 

now *that* sounds like a good way to kill production division. it might be great for novices, but most people aren't total noobs for very long, and people like to tweak their guns to their personal preference, whether or not it offers any actual advantage.

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$2000 race production gun?  A tanfo is $900.  A few hundred more than a Glock. If you want to make it nice, it's $200 more for sights, a hammer and some springs.  A Shadow 2 is around $1200 but doesn't require the extra stuff than a stock Tanfo does. 

 

And after all of that, it's not worth anything on the clock. Shoot what gun you want.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, waktasz said:

$2000 race production gun?  A tanfo is $900.  A few hundred more than a Glock. If you want to make it nice, it's $200 more for sights, a hammer and some springs.  A Shadow 2 is around $1200 but doesn't require the extra stuff than a stock Tanfo does. 

 

And after all of that, it's not worth anything on the clock. Shoot what gun you want.

 

I wasn't implying you couldn't find a reasonably priced, adequate production gun. My point was that an Accushadow (whatever number or flavor or the day) is pushing between $1,650 and $2,000 on the CZ Custom website and I am sure they are worth every penny, but they are not stock production guns in the way a factory fresh Glock or Springfield are - again, which is totally fine. Just calling it like I see it. I wouldn't call a hand built Ferrari Enzo a production car just because they made a run of 500 of them. I wouldn't call an Accushadow a Production gun aside from the fact it was "produced". My point was, and this just my opinion, that it would be fun to show up to a match where everyone geared up with the box stock gun they purchased from their local gun shop and see how that goes.

Lee

Edited by RevolverJockey

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Posted (edited)

Your definition of fun and mine are way, way different.

 

I have no desire to EVER shoot ANY out of the box factory gun.

 

Also there's no reason at all to get an Accushadow. Just because it exists and someone will pay for it doesn't mean it's worth it.

Edited by waktasz

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If you have the option to shoot either major or minor, I think that this does not take much thought. I would definitely shoot major. Looking at the Canadian Nationals, almost all Standard shooters (Limited), were shooting major, but to my surprise, the majority of classic shooters were shooting minor. My guess is for the higher magazine capacity.

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Good grief, what a thread. My opinion here is going to be no more important than a fart in the morning breeze. If even that. None-the-less, here goes.

 

The fact that eighty, or so, percent of the participants at the Nationals shot Major, is irrelevant to the conversation. They had to shoot Major to to be competitive. 

What is relevant is your average Joe on the street weekend warrior, who shows up at his local level 1 match every month, and blows away part of his kids college money for nothing more than a pat on the back from his wife when he shows her how well he finished. "That's great Honey, now go wash up for supper."

For Joe Average, and all the rest like him, none of this really matters.

 

As for me? Put me down for Major. Back in he day when the Gods of this sport (at Gunsite Ranch) set forth the rules, by which we were all supposed to live, determined that a defensive gun should have the power, along with speed and accuracy, to reasonably disable an assailant, established a power factor for the ammunition used.

It is still relative today. 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, abb1 said:

If you have the option to shoot either major or minor, I think that this does not take much thought. I would definitely shoot major. Looking at the Canadian Nationals, almost all Standard shooters (Limited), were shooting major, but to my surprise, the majority of classic shooters were shooting minor. My guess is for the higher magazine capacity.

9 scoring hits from a location or view weighs heavy on IPSC Classic.

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26 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

9 scoring hits from a location or view weighs heavy on IPSC Classic.

 

On the other hand... two out of the top three Classic guys at the recent World Shoot shot major.

It is actually a close call in Classic: two rounds more in a 9mm gun give you a little breathing space, and maybe options, but 8 Major rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber probably gets you through most stages without standing reloads.

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It's 8 scoring hits from single view or location.

 

Haven't looked at how major/minor placed in standard or classic at this years WS. Leatham won classical three years ago shooting minor in classic I believe. IPSC courses are significantly different from any major matches in USPSA. And, I would include the IPSC USPSA match as well. Will admit I could be wrong on the last point.  I don't believe any single stack major USPSA match has been won with minor power factor. With eight rounds + one in chamber. You have to aim!  You cannot afford to miss. You have to be able to reload quickly. 

 

If you want to learn how to shoot fast and accurately get good at SS shooting major. Don't care if 45 or 40 S&W. Eight rounds + one makes every skill more important to master. Draw, reloads, trigger control, sight picture, footwork into & out of shooting positions, movement between shooting positions, stage plan. You can not afford mistakes in SS major. You may get away with some shooting minor but not many without surrendering you mag capacity advantage. The difficulty of SS make Leatham's string of 16 consecutive SS titles more than just remarkable!  It is one of the all time best records in any sporting event. 

 

Look at the numbers. An example just choosen with no real though. 20 targets with 5 views or lactions to engage. Only 4 targets visible at any locations or view with equal difficult for each shoot. Major PF shooter shots stage in 20 sec. with 15A, 5C. What does the minor PF shooter have to do to match or beat the major PF shooter. If the minor shooter matches time the stage time, then he/she must have 18A, 2C or shoot the stage at least 0.51 sec faster if the shooter matches hits. Doable yes. Doable for a hhole match. Maybe not. If it was, there would be a whole to more minor PF winners in major/minor PF divisions.

 

Loosing 40% of the points possible for a B/C and 80% of the points on a D (aka "no penalty Mike" in minor) is just hard to make up regardless of the competitor's skill level.

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4 hours ago, GeneBray said:

It's 8 scoring hits from single view or location.

 

2017 IPSC rulebook states:

 

must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view

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19 hours ago, GeneBray said:

 

Haven't looked at how major/minor placed in standard or classic at this years WS.

 

 

First and third Major, in Classic, I believe.

Edited by perttime

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2017 IPSC rulebook states:
 
must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view

USPSA 8. IPSC 9


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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11 hours ago, GeneBray said:


USPSA 8. IPSC 9


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Sorry.  I realize USPSA is 8, but I thought you were referencing ChuckS's post, in which he was talking about 9 shots in IPSC Classic Div.

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Sorry.  I realize USPSA is 8, but I thought you were referencing ChuckS's post, in which he was talking about 9 shots in IPSC Classic Div.

No problem. I thought he speaking of USPSA. MY mistake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Posted (edited)
On 9/28/2017 at 11:56 AM, GeneBray said:

 I don't believe any single stack major USPSA match has been won with minor power factor.

 

5 mins of research would prove you wrong. Quite a few area matches have been won by minor shooters in the last few years, and specific ones cited in earlier discussions on this topic.

 

Depending on the stage design, minor can be a significant advantage for SS. Or it can be a disadvantage. Or it can be a wash. 

 

Of course the thread is about limited, not SS, so pardon my response to someone else's hijack.   :)

Edited by motosapiens

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I plan on shooting major pf in Limited for the next 12 months. So it's in favor with me.

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On 8/30/2017 at 10:05 AM, waktasz said:

Your definition of fun and mine are way, way different.

 

I have no desire to EVER shoot ANY out of the box factory gun..

 

This is what makes Production a slippery slope. No one who has been around competitions for six months wants to shoot a Tanfo CZ or Glock with the factory sights and recoil spring, without any grip tape or stippling.

 

Most of them want to some minor work to smooth out the trigger, or else drop in a full-house aftermarket kit.

 

Somewhere, you have to draw a line, and no one will ever agree where it should be.

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On 8/30/2017 at 9:22 AM, waktasz said:

$2000 race production gun?  A tanfo is $900.  A few hundred more than a Glock. If you want to make it nice, it's $200 more for sights, a hammer and some springs.  A Shadow 2 is around $1200 but doesn't require the extra stuff than a stock Tanfo does.

 

Wasn't happy with my Shadow 2 trigger until after I changed hammer & sear & disconnector & springs. Agree that it is better stock than the Tanfo, but if you are going to pay 1200 to start with you are likely to be somebody that is fussy about triggers. 

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I see shooting minor as a disadvantage overall unless your accuracy can compensate for hitting alphas.

 

I personally can't and eat charlies (and an occasional delta) at match speed. Some people can work it though.

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