Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 Thinking of getting a rifle for pcc. Looking at the sig mpx and the colt 6951.

 I would like some opinions on the pro's and con's of each.

 Thanks,

 Tim

Share this post


Link to post

I don' know anything about the 6951 but I have nothing but great things to say about my MPX.  I put a Giselle trigger in it and a good red dot and it does the rest.  Recoil is minimal, it's comfortable to shoot and you can get extended base pads to give you a 40 round capacity.  The only downside is the stocks from Sig aren't great.  I'd love it if I could have my luth AR stock on there.

Share this post


Link to post

Tim... if you are looking to buy a blow back (like the Colt) don't overlook something like the JP 9mm ....if you are on a budget, you can put one together for around $800 less sight...the blow back guns will recoil more than the short piston MPX....there are a lot of aftermarket parts for a basic AR platform however...you really need to shoot an MPX against a blow back for yourself... I shoot a Glock lower NFA, and find mag changes a lot easier than with a straight stick Colt style

Share this post


Link to post

I have the mpx carbine and Cz scorpion, I have shot a JP and several other AR based 9mm carbines. The mpx shoots softer than all the others in my opinion. The problem is the cost of mpx, by time you put a trigger, stock, red dot, and extra magazines with extended base pads you are way north of $2000. To me the next closest in terms of softest recoil would be the Cz. The mags are cheap and outside of an extended mag release and a trigger you really don't need to spend that much money to make it a competitive platform. 

Share this post


Link to post

Sig MPX's choke mid match than any other platform at our matches. CZ's and quality build AR's run fine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post

I have a 6951 and bought it several years ago.  I installed a geissele trigger and a new handguard.  It's needed some tuning.  It's a nice rifle.  However, the price with the extras is creeping towards the price of a jp.

 

I love my metal CZ pistols.  I handled one of the CZ rifles a couple weekends ago and it just didn't feel that good to me.  I have a friend with one that doesn't run.  In addition, I'm very familiar with the AR platform and therefore the location of the CZ controls seemed strange.

 

Re the sig, they are pretty costly and I'm betting there is a lot more evolution that will occur. 

 

If I were in the market today, I'd buy the new jp.  My 223 jp is a stunningly good rifle.   

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Hello: It is fun to see the different platforms that people are running. In the match this past weekend on my squad we had a Sig MPX, Vector, AR9mm(me) and a MP5 clone. We all had a problem on one stage and all the problems were magazine related. I was testing new mags and base pads and had one jam and turn into a salt shaker. Vector and MP5 both had a round that did not feed after two shots fired. The Sig had a salt shaker mag as well. The coolest one was the MP5 clone but it still had iron sights on it. He is going to install a C-More soon. The Sig has a lot of work done to it but still had the stock trigger. The Vector is a strange feel when you shoot it and the C-More sat very high on it. For me I like the AR 9mm setup and if you set them up they shoot very soft and flat. Play with loads and springs till you get what you want. They same holds true for the other PCC's out there. Thanks, Eric

Share this post


Link to post

I love my Sig but I am not married to it. It is overly complicated, kind of a pain to clean the piston system, and everything is expensive for this gun. It also has a short chamber that I have yet to try and ream. It isn't perfect but it has run great with the right loads. Right now I am loading 3.2-3.3gr of N320 under a 147gr bayou. I think I will end up running a 124gr bayou with cfe pistol or a similar powder, I think the extra gas that cfe provides will help give a quicker recoil impulse. I haven't seen these super cheap AR builds everyone is talking about. I have built many many ARs in multiple calibers and in my experience when you put good parts on it the budget balloons very quickly. When I priced out the parts to build a 9mm AR it came out very close to what JP is offering for their turnkey build. 

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks for all the information.

 I will try and shoot a couple different rifles and see what  feels good to me.

 Tim

Share this post


Link to post

Hello: If you end up liking the AR 9mm you can either build one or just by a JP. Mag choice will be your other option either Colt or Glock. Cheap mags is a bonus in my book but I am a bit of a mag hoarder. You can never have too many mags! Thanks, Eric

Share this post


Link to post

If you end up leaning towards an AR platform and don't want to mess around building your own, take a hard look at a JP.  They do their chambers the right way, MG 124 JHPs at 1.17 drop right in.  They sure did their homework balancing everything to get it to run well.  Mine out of the box ran everything all the way down to my powder puff IDPA rounds.  And you get a JP trigger which is pretty good.

Share this post


Link to post

I went the AR9 route, putting one together from a smorgasbord of manufacturers parts.  It's just like assembling an AR, but it took some trial and error to find the right combination of load, buffer weight, and buffer spring to minimize dot movement during recoil of the blowback system.  I like it and will continue to shoot it, but then the other day I shot my friend's MPX.  

 

It's true, those MPXs recoil much lighter than the blowback AR9s and doing double taps at 10 yds don't require much effort to get <1" pairs.  I think I fell in lust, especially when you factor in cool-kid parts such as Springer Precision's barrel shroud, Lancer carbon handguard, Magpul Yugo stock, and Bottom Feeder magwell.  One of those is probably 2x's what I have into my AR9 build, but damn.  I need one.  

Share this post


Link to post

I went with the MPX.  That said my two buddies run GMR-13s and there isn't a darn thing wrong with them.  Well, other than no ambi mag release and me being a lefty.  The MPX is an expensive option as others have said.  Sig appears to have just jacked their price up and at a minimum it needs a trigger and stock.  Mags are to my mind overpriced.  You either need to get the gas port opened if you want to shoot fast powders or just shoot slow powders.  I choose the latter.  That said (having changed to slow powders) I now have an extremely reliable, soft shooting PCC that runs 40 round mags like butter.  That works for me, but then I come from Open so every gun in this division is a bargain.  :-)

Share this post


Link to post

I'm now over 14,000 rounds on my JP GMR-13ish. As of now, I have only broken a firing pin at ~11k-12k rounds. To be absolutely fair, the gun was still running 90% with the pin sheared. However, my PCC acts as a loaner rifle at a local steels match. We have had 4 shooters run a 200 round match suppressed plus a side match after with that JP. You can get them absolutely filthy and they will still run. Typically in practice I'll go through 500-1000 rounds in a day. 

 

I still think the JP is the most reliable option, especially once you start getting past 5000 rounds. I have seen various other fun to borderline dangerous malfunctions in various other brand AR's and MPX PCCs. Everything from jams to drop in AR triggers "wearing out" in PCC's and going full auto. 

Share this post


Link to post

I would recommend the JP as well. Two of my friends bought the JP GMR-13 right after I bought my ATI. I didn't want to spend the $1699 the dealer was charging for them, so I got the bargain priced ATI at $899. To be fair, it's a really fun rifle for most people and a good value, however it cost me more in the long run. By the time I got it to my current configuration, I had spent slightly more on upgrades than buying the JP. The only difference is that mine is now a side-charger with LRBHO, which JP only offers on the new GMR-15 for over $2k.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post

Budget is the biggest factor, along with your willingness to piece a gun together vs. buy a complete package. At the high end (JP, SIG) you can spend close to 2K. If you go with a generic AR15/9mm platform (Glock- or Colt-magazine based), you can get something competitive for half that price.

 

My personal opinion:

SIG MPX: This is probably the best competition gun for USPSA matches. It's gas piston system makes it soft shooting, but also expensive and somewhat of a thorougbred (needs special ammo). SIG won't sell you spare parts, so you need to buy 2 identical rifles if you are serious and plan on traveling to major matches. I won't buy this rifle unless/until SIG changes their stance on spares.

 

AR15/9mm, Colt magazine: This was always a half-assed design, shoehorning an Uzi magazine into a 5.56mm AR15 receiver. Blowback = harsher recoil. There are dedicated lowers that use the same magazine, or you can use a drop-in removable magazine block in a regular AR15 lower. The magazines are robust, though some can spit rounds a bit too readily (PSA usually sells good ones for $20 each, which is a screaming deal). For USPSA, the weakness is the poor speed-reloadability of the Colt magazine, which kills you on classifiers. If you do go this way, avoid the Colt-brand and piece something together with better components at a lower price. My current USPSA PCC is a Colt-pattern configuration (using a Hahn top-insert magazine block in a 5.56mm lower, and a CMMG bolt).

 

AR15/9mm, Glock magazine: There are several manufacturers offering parts and complete guns. Glock mags are prolific, and their taper plus availability of pistol-length mags makes them better for speed-reloads (i.e. USPSA classifiers). Despite being blowback, these rifles appear to be able to be able to keep up with the MPX, and spares are readily available/inexpensive. I am building a new PCC based around the Glock magazine system.

 

CZ Scorpion: This is a dedicated 9mm design, also blowback. I have limited trigger time, but it felt like it could be competitive. The price is good, and reliability seems excellent. The original magazines are semi-consumable as the feed lips will wear out, but I understand aftermarket mags may be available with metal feed lips. Some additional accessorizing is required (safety, trigger) to optimize for USPSA. Overall, not a bad choice.

 

There are many many other options out there, but likely none are better for USPSA than the four listed above as of right now.

 

One last consideration is whether to go with a 16" "rifle" or go through the extra cost/delay/ATF paperwork hassle of getting a <16" "short barreled rifle (SBR)". My current PCC is a registered SBR with 10" barrel; I find it handier on some stages, but also it is a bit harder to drive and control recoil due to the short handguard. For me, the jury is still out, but when I build my Glock-magazine PCC I have decided it will have a 16" barrel. Honestly, I don't think you are giving up much with a rifle-length system, may even be superior for what we do.

 

Good luck with your decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Budget is the biggest factor, along with your willingness to piece a gun together vs. buy a complete package. At the high end (JP, SIG) you can spend close to 2K. If you go with a generic AR15/9mm platform (Glock- or Colt-magazine based), you can get something competitive for half that price.

 

My personal opinion:

SIG MPX: This is probably the best competition gun for USPSA matches. It's gas piston system makes it soft shooting, but also expensive and somewhat of a thorougbred (needs special ammo). SIG won't sell you spare parts, so you need to buy 2 identical rifles if you are serious and plan on traveling to major matches. I won't buy this rifle unless/until SIG changes their stance on spares.

 

AR15/9mm, Colt magazine: This was always a half-assed design, shoehorning an Uzi magazine into a 5.56mm AR15 receiver. Blowback = harsher recoil. There are dedicated lowers that use the same magazine, or you can use a drop-in removable magazine block in a regular AR15 lower. The magazines are robust, though some can spit rounds a bit too readily (PSA usually sells good ones for $20 each, which is a screaming deal). For USPSA, the weakness is the poor speed-reloadability of the Colt magazine, which kills you on classifiers. If you do go this way, avoid the Colt-brand and piece something together with better components at a lower price. My current USPSA PCC is a Colt-pattern configuration (using a Hahn top-insert magazine block in a 5.56mm lower, and a CMMG bolt).

 

AR15/9mm, Glock magazine: There are several manufacturers offering parts and complete guns. Glock mags are prolific, and their taper plus availability of pistol-length mags makes them better for speed-reloads (i.e. USPSA classifiers). Despite being blowback, these rifles appear to be able to be able to keep up with the MPX, and spares are readily available/inexpensive. I am building a new PCC based around the Glock magazine system.

 

CZ Scorpion: This is a dedicated 9mm design, also blowback. I have limited trigger time, but it felt like it could be competitive. The price is good, and reliability seems excellent. The original magazines are semi-consumable as the feed lips will wear out, but I understand aftermarket mags may be available with metal feed lips. Some additional accessorizing is required (safety, trigger) to optimize for USPSA. Overall, not a bad choice.

 

There are many many other options out there, but likely none are better for USPSA than the four listed above as of right now.

 

One last consideration is whether to go with a 16" "rifle" or go through the extra cost/delay/ATF paperwork hassle of getting a <16" "short barreled rifle (SBR)". My current PCC is a registered SBR with 10" barrel; I find it handier on some stages, but also it is a bit harder to drive and control recoil due to the short handguard. For me, the jury is still out, but when I build my Glock-magazine PCC I have decided it will have a 16" barrel. Honestly, I don't think you are giving up much with a rifle-length system, may even be superior for what we do.

 

Good luck with your decision.

Hello: All are very good points about the different platforms. I will add that the Colt pattern lowers can use 20 round mags for quick magazine changes and classifiers. They load faster than the big sticks do. Also a Taccom magwell helps with the Colt dedicated lower like the Quarter Circle 10 I have. I have a dedicated Quarter Circle 10 Glock lower as well and it runs Glock factory and Magpul magazines just fine. I am not going the SBR route but I am testing the super light uppers on a AR 9mm. The top PCC guys here are running AR 9mm and there are a lot of JP rifles here. Tuning your loads and recoil system really helps the blowback rifles. I say pick one and budget about $1800 for it and some spare parts whether that gives you two rifles or just one with the best parts. Thanks, Eric

Edited by Aircooled6racer

Share this post


Link to post

To add to the non-SBR conversation is the option of getting a <16" barrel and having a shroud permanently attached to equal legal length.  Springer Precision and Taccom are doing this work, and the advantage I see is reducing weight especially at the muzzle.  I haven't shot or handled an AR9 with a shroud, but I have shot a MPX that was converted from a pistol (8" bbl) to a 16" carbine via SP shroud and a real stock.  The shroud reduced a bunch of weight and made the gun balance better which was good for transitions.  Bonus was the ports in the shroud made the gun loud enough for a shot timer to pick it up from normal RO distance, as opposed to crowding the shooter on the last shot.   

Share this post


Link to post
On 3/13/2017 at 2:27 PM, lhoward762 said:

Sig MPX's choke mid match than any other platform at our matches. CZ's and quality build AR's run fine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

So far this is NOT what I am seeing at matches.  Myself and those I have shot with are not having this problem.  I am shooting the SBR version and am up in the air about the size.  It is good for getting through some cramped stages but it does force me to have a short hand guard.  I have also notice that some stage designers have you start with the muzzle on an X placed on the wall.  They then place the X low for the 16" barrels.

Share this post


Link to post
So far this is NOT what I am seeing at matches.  Myself and those I have shot with are not having this problem.  I am shooting the SBR version and am up in the air about the size.  It is good for getting through some cramped stages but it does force me to have a short hand guard.  I have also notice that some stage designers have you start with the muzzle on an X placed on the wall.  They then place the X low for the 16" barrels.


We've seen punctured primers, failures to feed and eject, and firing on trigger reset. That's with three different sbr'd MPX's, each having one or two of the failures listed above.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post

I have an SBR 10.5" AR9 & a 16" PSA AR9, and I'm thinking a 13" barrel would be perfect compromise for all the reasons above. 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, lhoward762 said:

 


We've seen punctured primers, failures to feed and eject, and firing on trigger reset. That's with three different sbr'd MPX's, each having one or two of the failures listed above.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

 



I know 4 people who have SBR'd MPX's... ALL of them have issues. Mix of Gen 1 and Gen 2 as well with Gen 1 and Gen 2 magazines. Lots of failures to feed and eject. They honestly shot them that long as they'll get multiple malfunctions per magazines which made them shelf their guns... 3 of the 4 recently sent out their barrels out to some Sig guru who did something with the port and some other things, I'm not exactly sure. They just got them back, I am unsure if they work any better. 

Here's my .02 cents... you can get a Scorpion, plenty of magazines, a nice optic, a case of ammo, and still have money left over instead of an MPX. Again, most people are running AR9s so there must also be a reason for that.

Share this post


Link to post

I started out with the typical metal mag conversion 9mm AR. The gun was very inconsistent magazine wise (tried all different brands of mags,  magwell adaptors etc....Soooo....

 

In our group of three shooter's we have settled on the CZ Scorpion carbine. You will want to change to the lighter trigger springs  ($8.00). Maybe add the AK style RH safety selector?, ($30) as the stock RH one is an irritant to the trigger finger. Also, the AK front paddle mag release isn't a bad investment ($35) BUT probably not needed IF you don't have to change mags during a course of fire???...30 round mags @ $20 is a plus.   The TF mag extensions (W/spring) WORK, very well made..... Can't say the same for the CZC mag extensions (guessing weak springs)...The TF's should get you through most courses of fire W/O a mag change. PLUS, YOU LOOK COOL!!! with the CZ Scorpion, Styling wise..

 

Now,that said, I have 2 other PPC guns, both take Glock mags and are very reliable. 1st. is a PSA Glock  lower receiver gun, 2nd. is a Just Right 9mm gun. Either is a good choice, depending on your budget...One thing to watch for on Factory Glock mags is the wear on the mag body at the mag slot because of the metal mag releases on these guns... (Glock's mags don't like metal mag releases).....When your Glock mags fall out?, look for the worn slot....You can buy mag extensions  /w/spring for the 33 round mags.. (TF o TT).

 

Red dots... 2 of the group use the Vortex Spitfire 1x, (the "etched reticule" is a big plus, still visible dot even if the battery fails and GREAT if you have astigmatism). I use the "SightMark Ultra dot even though I have astigmatism as I don't like looking down a tube and they are very reliable, (I use the circle/dot... Hard to miss the 8" steel plates (I can still miss?)..($80)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

My PSA mag catch isn't metal. It's a hard polymer. 

Share this post


Link to post

OPENB..... Wonder why it's polymer now????...... HUMMM...... Maybe a "little bird" told them something?......As a note ... the Glock ETS mags work and are made from a harder plastic.($12 ea.) (I have not got the TF mag extensions too function with them as yet....Just a little bit tighter)...Those 2 other Glock guns see limited duty now anyhow.....Nice too have a backup gun that works!

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×