IDPA rules and why you don't like them

[bradsteimel]

I hear a lot of people that complain about all the rules. Most of the time the same people can't follow them. I will admit when you can reload is a little fuzzy.

Even with all the terrible scars from IDPA shooting I'm much faster and can think while I'm running the gun. I would rather have the skill set that I have now to defend myself than before I started IDPA.

We all compete with the same rules. If people would stop complaining and practice they would be better off.

Hopefully you don't depend on IDPA matches to learn how to defend yourself. In the real world you don't have RO's or stage setters telling you where to go or when to shoot. My suggestion would be to talk to folks that have lived it. Been there and done it.

So my biggest complaint about the rules would be " Telling me how to shoot a stage. ". My problem, I'll solve it.

"Engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area" is the only WSB I need (and scoring method and start position of course)

Amen! That's why I'm shying away from ICORE.

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[Rangerdug]

Thats why you used to hear about LEOs in the revolver days dumping empties in their hand and placing them in their pocket before reloading during a shootout. That's the way they had been doing it on the range.

I have heard that twice. Once about the Newhall Incident, for which it has largely been debunked, the other by Bill Jordan in 'No Second Place Winner' in which he described the Border Patrolman found with a pocket full of brass after an engagement with smugglers. Thing is, this was after the shootout and the range trained Expert had successfully dealt with an opponent with a rifle.

First the FBI, did believe this so much that they went out of their way to train it out of new agents.

How does this relate to IDPA and the real world. Easy if you train or compete with repetition it becomes routine or a natural response. The reason we dry fire.

So how does this translate to the real world event. Easy, when put in high stress event you have to counter the adrenaline dump which creates the port hole effect. You become acutely focused on the threat. However you subconsciously continue to do what you know do( using implicit learning). For example why the military teaches religiously POPs, SNAP, and Slap Rack immediate action drills. As you mentioned you are only as good as your level of training. Stress or your response to it, can be conditioned. Hence why military and law enforcement use high levels of stress in their training.

Now IDPA, it is not the be-all civilian solution to stress training for the real world. But, it is a good start. For all of its issues their are some good fundamentals it reinforces. For all the complaints of how out of touch IDPA is to the real world. I give an IDPA shooter a better chance in a gun fight then some average joe with only a CWP.

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[Pete Whyte]

Brad, I do not understand the comment , thats why I'm shying away from ICORE.

[troupe]

I tried it and would have had a good time, but was turned off by a Tactical Monster Range Officer. This guy worked for a jewelry store, made very good money doing so. The stage had multiple targets to engage, big for a IDPA match. I shot my targets as described, left one shooting area and as I was coming to a wall to shoot around, the targets were visible and I engaged them as I was sitting up for the shots. This guy starts screaming at me, would you do that in real life. I accepted the penalty, procedure, what ever he decided that made him feel good. He continued to scream real life. After a few minutes of his tactical lessons that he felt that I needed, I could not take it anymore. I really do believe that he was upset that I made my hits on the targets before my feet stopped moving. After 21 years as a LEO, I feel that I may had a small bit of experience to speak on his tactical lessons that he wanted to continue with.

I never claimed to be anything special, and I will be the first to say, just because I was a LEO, there are Officers with good experience, but piss poor tactics. After enough of his ranting, I quickly informed him that it was a game that he is playing, hence the reason for rules, second, I informed him that no one that I ever have had the honor of working with, military or law enforcement, had been killed by cardboard targets. I then advised him that if the multiple targets that was arranged, and any one with half ounce of common sense would not charge into a gunfight without back up first being called in. Then I also told him that the bullets sent towards his bad guy targets was very good cover, if he did not think so, switch places and see if he did not keep his head down. I just could not take it. I still would shoot IDPA, but was turned off by this guy, what a JERK, and he probably said the same thing about me. I have many good friends that has done very well with IDPA, Frank Glover for one. Franks range has held many , many matches and I believe he has even held the Nationals. Love Frank to death and Frank would not even accepted this D.H. behavior. I always joked that IDPA stands for I DON'T PLACE ANYMORE.

I would be glad to have the chance to shoot some more with my old friends, after all, it is still putting bullets down range, and that is why I started the shooting years ago, because I enjoyed a shooting GAME. As for the other, that is why Special Forces, Rangers, Delta, SWAT, SIRT all have a selection process and for a good reason, you either have it mentally or you don't. Remember, in the right circumstances, cover fire is tough to beat !! In a real life gunfight, the only rule that I know is to survive, and I can promise one thing, if I get shot at, the rules are gone until the threat or threats is neutralized. Keep shooting and be safe.

[shootaglock]

I have learned in the last few years thst I enjoy idpa much more if I stay off of forums arguing about the rules. Just shoot and have fun.

[Jim Watson]

I think you are right.

Why do I need to defend IDPA against the killers and the spoilers?

I'm not Matt Dillon.

[racknrider]

I have learned in the last few years thst I enjoy idpa much more if I stay off of forums arguing about the rules. Just shoot and have fun.

Especially the forums where people that don't even shoot IDPA just like to bash it

[JD45]

Amen to the cover thing. It's more like, a " how much does the SO like you" rule. I've seen it for 16 years.

[chuckstur]

Unless you can find a police department that carries them, Glock 34s and long M&Ps are not stock service pistols. Same with the CZs and clones. ESP for sure.

Dropping an empty mag should be OK.

CCP and BUG should require IWB holsters.

[IronArcher]

I get the dropping an empty mag issue (agree 100%)

I get the IWB for CCP&BUG (not sure I agree, but I get the point)

I do NOT get the whole CZs should be ESP.... LOTS of police forces use CZs... Not so many in the US, but there are some here as well.

What is it about a CZ that you find makes it not appropriate for SSP?

[Steppenwolf]

I've shot about ten IDPA matches in the last 1.2 years. Our local club dropped IDPA affiliation (vast majority of competitors supported the decision). There is a club one-half hour away that is still IDPA. I've started shooting more USPSA (longer drive) and our local club is steering toward more USPSA-style shooting.

My thoughts about IDPA rules. I agree that the cover rule is often arbitrarily interpreted.

I agree that every match seems to have one or more ROs that really make it difficult to have an enjoyable match because of dictatorial proclamations/bad judgment (last Sunday's match began with two RO's declaring in the safety briefing that "catching bullets" when unloading and showing clear will result in an immediate DQ. They claimed that IDPA HQ updated some clarification and that some idiot somewhere, while trying to catch a bullet, shot his hand after the bullet "rechambered itself"). I smell BS, but it is their turf. I also had one of those ROs give me one point down even after I pointed out that a bullet hole was touching the perf line (he gave a quick glance, said "down one" and walked off). I thought the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter (but this club seems to ding out-of-town shooters more).

I'm tired of hearing a senior RO repeat the mantra that people with 5" guns (Glock 34s, M&P 5") are not really shooting carry guns and that he shoots his carry gun (and that the "gamer gun" shooters are in it for the wrong reason). I think that he has been shooting for six or seven years and just does not like some newbies showing up and scoring higher. I think that I am going to show up each match at that club and shoot a gun that I've never shot before in competition (such as a Glock 19--that I do carry) and afterwards smile and say "Indian not arrow, eh Kemosabe?"

[Jim Watson]

Ironsrcher: A CZ can shoot SSP if started DA/SA.

Steppe wolf: I don't see that sort of stuff. You have a range problem, not an IDPA problem.

[Steppenwolf]

Jim:

Good point, but IDPA is judged by the people shooting it and their experiences at local clubs. For some of us, it is an IDPA problem even if that assessment is "unfair." We just shut up and shoot (their turf their rules). Our local club, when it was IDPA-affiliated, had fewer problems, but the arbitrary cover calls would be among the most cited.

[chuckstur]

I get the dropping an empty mag issue (agree 100%)

I get the IWB for CCP&BUG (not sure I agree, but I get the point)

I do NOT get the whole CZs should be ESP.... LOTS of police forces use CZs... Not so many in the US, but there are some here as well.

What is it about a CZ that you find makes it not appropriate for SSP?

Just that less than 6% of the shots come from a DA trigger, the other 94% from a fine SA trigger. Not bashing the guns, just the classification.

C

[Rangerdug]

Unless you can find a police department that carries them, Glock 34s and long M&Ps are not stock service pistols. Same with the CZs and clones.

Actually you are starting to see 34/35 as service pistols. Using that logic a 1911 isn't a service pistol either.

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[Racinready300ex]

The rules just seem to frustrate me some times. And when stage design intentionally try to add PE "traps" that makes it worse. A shooter with a decent understanding of the rules should be able to shoot a match with to no PE's.

The last match I shot there were 38 shooters, and during the match 26 PE's were called. And I'm sure some were missed. How you place is highly dependent on the number of PE's you get and a simple cover call can cost you the match. I think with that many rules being broken in every match I shoot, something is off. The game could be fun but the rules keep getting in the way.

[dvc4you]

What I dislike about IDPA is that is run by a family and not the members, I have always disliked taxation without representation.

The origins of this game can be found when high capacity 1911 became available for USPSA and said family did not have such product available, let's create another game were my products are still competitive...

This just mi opinion

[Jim Watson]

IDPA came along when high capacity 1911 derivatives were available and the government restricted their sale. Said family obeyed instead of dodging the law.

I was already active in 1994 and some of the stuff coming out of USPSA shooters, match directors, gunzine writers, and Sedro Wooley was just amazing. I am surprised some officials and vendors did not go to prison or at least get thrashed through the courts at ruinous expense.

[ADulay]

The last match I shot there were 38 shooters, and during the match 26 PE's were called. And I'm sure some were missed. How you place is highly dependent on the number of PE's you get and a simple cover call can cost you the match. I think with that many rules being broken in every match I shoot, something is off. The game could be fun but the rules keep getting in the way.

I don't find that amount of PE's to be out of line with a normal Level 1 match.

Just looked back at our last 4 matches and here's how it looked for "Shooters / PE's":

47 / 39

55 / 47

55 / 27

53 / 31

Considering most of those are probably from newer people shooting "out of sequence" or not using WHO/SHO or the always popular "leaving a position of cover with an empty gun", I'd say your numbers were pretty much average.

AD

[Racinready300ex]

I think you're right that is about average. That's what I don't like, I know the rules pretty well and will still fall into a trap and get a PE.

I shoot more USPSA now, and I've gone 1.5 years with out getting a PE. Most matches I go to I don't see anyone get a PE. If I go a whole IDPA match with out one I'm happy. To me this is a problem. At the USPSA match the guy who shot the best will win. At the IDPA match it will likely be the guy who didn't get dinged for the PE

[IronArcher]

I get the dropping an empty mag issue (agree 100%)

I get the IWB for CCP&BUG (not sure I agree, but I get the point)

I do NOT get the whole CZs should be ESP.... LOTS of police forces use CZs... Not so many in the US, but there are some here as well.

What is it about a CZ that you find makes it not appropriate for SSP?

Just that less than 6% of the shots come from a DA trigger, the other 94% from a fine SA trigger. Not bashing the guns, just the classification.

C

Perhaps on a max size limit 18 round string.

I have seen several strings being 10 shots or less. Some of the classifier strings are 33.3% DA

Just because a gun has a good SA trigger it shouldn't be in SSP?

[DukeEB]

In my area, we have several very good idpa matches and clubs. Changing rules is just a part of this game, I don't worry about it much. I don't like the 1 second penalty change, but if you go down zero, it's not a problem. It will just serve to widen the distance between skill levels.

I shoot uspsa as well, which I do like better, but idpa is a fun game too.