Baby Eagle...

[Flexmoney]

Anybody have a scouting report on these guns?

It seems there is plenty of weight in the frames, low bore axis, etc... They seeem like they would shoot soft and flat? (Espeically at Minor pf.)

[Skywalker]

Flex,

are you referring to the IMI Jericho 9x19, 9x21, .41"AE, marketed in the U.S. as Baby Eagle?

AFAIK, in the mid '90es they were produced in Italy by Tanfoglio and had their final assembly and fitting done by IMI. If you wish, I can dig in my gunzines and come up with a test/review I will try to translate from Italian.

[Flexmoney]

Pretty sure it is identical to the IMI Jericho. (I don't know if one is put together better than the other?)

How close is this gun to to CZ-(75?) ?

[ErikW]

Yeah, there was a version marketed as the Jericho. In the U.S. they sold the Jerichos with both 9 and 40 parts. It's pretty much a Tanfoglio FAB-92 with a full dust cover, which is to say, it's pretty much their CZ clone, with a decocker. I really wanted one for Production, but it's not approved for sale in California. It should shoot just like a TZ or CZ, but maybe a little softer and less flip because of the long dust cover.

One problem might be finding a Production-legal holster, because of that dust cover.

[Skywalker]

I suppose the IMI Jericho should be quite close to a CZ 75, due to the fact that Tanfoglio (whose guns are mostly based on the CZ design) made some parts for them (if I rember well the frame and, probably, the slide).

The main common features for the CZ-75, Tanfoglios and Jericho are the grip shape/angle and the slide rails that are internal to the frame, as opposed to the external frame rails of a classic 1911 design: this allows for a lower bore axis on the shooting hand.

I'll search this evening in my gunzines an article on this gun and will post more on the topic.

[Skywalker]

Just a consideration on the design:

for IPSC purposes I'd stick with a CZ or Tanfoglio (who happens to produce long dust cover frames for 9mm too) due to the slide-mounted safety/decocker: it can produce some pretty nice cuts in your fingers when you have to rack the slide to solve a jam under the competition pressure.

CZ and Tanfoglios have a more suitable frame-mounted safety that doesn't decock the hammer, but allows for cocked & locked condition.

[Stratochief]

Anybody have a scouting report on these guns?

It seems there is plenty of weight in the frames, low bore axis, etc... They seeem like they would shoot soft and flat? (Espeically at Minor pf.)

I would be VERY hesitant of buying a pistol from IMI. I bought a Baby Eagle in 9mm 3 years ago to use in IDPA. This particular gun shout 12 inches high at 15 yards, this was confirmed by 3 shooters. I sent it off to the factory, 30 days later, I received it back stating they replaced the top end. To my dismay, the pistol STILL shot about 8 inches high at 15 yards. Going back and forth with these guys for 3 months, I finally gave up and sold the pistol. I will NEVER buy from IMI again. I paid about $325 for this pistol, you get what you pay for. If you want my opinion, stay well clear of IMI.

[Vlad]

One of my good friends has been shooting one in production for about a year. As I have a CZ we had the chance to do some side by side comparisons. The grip shape is a bit different being somewhat deeper under the beaver tail. The internals are quite different, which is the result of the safety location and the addition of a decocker. The Baby Eagle ergonomics might actually be a bit better, as the grip shape allows for easier access to the mag release. The slide release is also slightly extended, and that is one of the often heard complains about the CZ. The slide mounted safety actually makes it easier to rack the slide, as the inside frame rails don't leave you much slide left to pull on. The gun shoots better then I can, at point of aim, and the recoil is about the same as a CZ with factory ammo. No problems in a few 1000s of factory 9mm.

Hope this helps

Vlad

[Bucky]

I also shoot with someone who uses a Baby Eagle and he loves it! (Vlad, you weren't talking about Phil were you?). He is using a Blade-Tech dropped and offset holster.

The gun shoots very flat and he's hasn't had any trouble with it that I know of. I'm amazed at how reliable it is. It has the smallest ejection port I've ever seen on a 9mm.

The extended slide release is actually becoming a detriment, since it is very easy to rest a thumb on it, preventing the gun from locking back. This is even more of a problem in IDPA. I personally don't like the very radically curved trigger. Again, he's used a Beretta Elite II, a S&W 5906 and Glocks and this is what he likes. To each his own.

[Ron Ankeny]

One of the guys I shoot with has one and he is absolutely kicking butt with it. I haven't had the chance to shoot his pistol, but he has shot my CZ 75. According to the guys who have shot both, the Baby Eagle has better ergonomics (higher under the beavertail), better access to the controls, and shoots much softer with the same loads. The Baby Eagle looks like a real winner.

[spook]

Number 3 in WSXIII (production) shot a Jericho/Baby Eagle. Number 2 shot a Tanfoglio (CZs and clones WORK). I heard somewhere that one of the disadvantages is that the factory trigger is pretty heavy, and cannot be smoothed to competitive levels (IPSC rules) very easily. For USPSA it's a gun I'd consider buying.

[Flexmoney]

Ok...I've done a bit more digging...

Same as the Jericho 941 (9 = 9mm, 41 = 41ActionExpress)

I don't think anybody is producing the 41AE (10mm) barreld version, but they are stll called the 941. These guns are now available in 9mm, 40S&W, & 45ACP.

There are steel and polymer framed versions.

They can be had in grip lengths of 3.25 and 3.75 inches.

They can be had in short and long barrel versions.

There are versions (of the Jericho, at least) that have frame mounted safeties instead of the slide mount. I don't know if those are still available.

[ORCA]

I had one of the baby eagles in .41 ae. Run away! Run away! It was the worst piece of junk firearm I've ever owned or shot. It jammed ever two or three rounds and was horribly inaccurate. I sent it back to the factory, (or distributor), twice and they never fixed it.

It was the gun that made me quite buying the "gun of the day" that the gun mags were praising and start buying the classic guns they were comparing the new guns to (Browning HP, CZ75, 1911, Sig, and even Glocks).

I traded the baby desert eagle in on a Browning high power and was never happier.

[Skywalker]

OK, I finally found something.

It's an old article from Dave Anderson, translated and published on an italian gunzine in may 1993.

Basically it says what I already posted about the commonality of some Jericho parts with Tanfoglios: those parts are manufactured by Tanfoglio on IMI specifications and quality control.

According to Dave Anderson, the Jericho guns have a poligonal rifling barrel.

Two different versions of manual safety are available: a slide-mounted safety/decocker, and a frame mounted safety/only.

Field stripping of the gun is very simple and efficient: the same as a CZ/Tanfoglio. Line up slide and frame marks, extract the slide stop, strip slide from frame. No need to be worried about the recoil spring flying away: it's captive in the guide rod.

The grip, measured at the base of the trigger guard is 47.5mm in lenght and 34.3mm in width. Trigger reach is 76.5mm in double action, 66.7mm in single action. Dave Anderson considers the DA trigger reach quite awkward for small-sized hands.

The live fire test involved some 1k 9mm rounds, with only a couple of stovepipes Anderson says due to a combination of light charge and limp-wristing the gun.

Precision @ 20m was in the 2" 1/2 - 3" with all test ammo (Blazer, UZI, Hornady).

All in all, looks like Anderson was quite happy with this handgun, its finish and its precision, for a service pistol.

[PistolJim]

I have a Baby Eagle in 9mm. It's pretty accurate. Recoil is very soft even when compared to my G34. It's more accurate than the G34. I originally purchased it for my wife. Blade Tech made a holster for it. The barrel sticks out of the bottom of the holster. The trigger is gritty and has alot of overtravel but it did smooth out some. The weight isn't bad.

I've never got the Baby Eagle to function 100%. It always jams 3-4 times every 100 rounds. Ive tried different mags, mag springs, recoil springs, factory ammo, different reloads. A local smith looked at it and said the extractor needed adjustment so I let him do it. Didn't work. I fired about 2500 rounds trying to get it to work.

It's been in the safe for about 2 years. I was supposed to bring it to a smith in Michigan that worked on alot of CZ's. Never got around to it. Im the type that can't trade something in till it works so I may own it forever.

It really shoots nice. It's really a shame I can't get it working.

I would say you'd be better off with the CZ.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Are the internals for the Jericho/Baby Eagle the same as the CZ?

[Vlad]

Not really, as the safety is on the slide not the frame, and the baby eagle has a decocker as well. They are however related, as far as I can tell.

Vlad

[MoNsTeR]

Mine works well, but the trigger sucks, and it isn't as soft shooting as that long dustcover makes it look. OTOH, it may have the most comfortable grip of any autopistol ever made.

Many Tanfoglio parts work: sears, hammers, magazines, pins, springs, slide stops, safeties (on frame safety models), probably others. Not sure about barrels or guide rods (the factory guide rod is captured, argh!).

[Skywalker]

Many Tanfoglio parts work: sears, hammers, magazines, pins, springs, slide stops, safeties (on frame safety models), probably others.  Not sure about barrels or guide rods (the factory guide rod is captured, argh!).

Don't have handy a link to baby eagle internal parts, but here you can find all Tanfoglio internal parts depicted.

BTW, the Tanfo guide rod is captive too.

[Carlos]

"Number 3 in WSXIII (production) shot a Jericho/Baby Eagle. " If this is the guy from South America, then he was leading Sevigny by a wide margin for the 1st part of the match.

Stratochief - unless you live outside the US, then you did NOT send it back to IMI; you sent it back to IMI's crappy US distributor, Magnum Research. who I also have had problems with due to their lack of support/parts or interest in the 941 (marked as a BE) that THEY imported. However, they are not IMI. IMI produces an excellent gun with top potential for USPSA Production. Here is why:

The frame has a long/heavy dustcover like an STI. The frames and slides are indeed forged by Tanfoglio but machined in Israel where an Israeli hammer forged polygonal rifling barrel is fitted. There is no identical Tanfoglio and even the long dustcover Tan is not imported into the US so if you want these features, buy a baby DE. They use the same slide for 9mm and .40 so the 9mm is effectively a bull barrel - just like the STI adding weight and stiffness. There is also a steel full lenght guid rod (unlike the CZ-75B) which adds just a bit more wieght up front. Add in the full-length frame rails copied by CZ from the Swiss Sig 210 (the most accurate 9mm auto in the world) and you have a very accurate gun with plenty of accuracy for USPSA - even the 50 yard standards.

I may be the one Vlad is referring to; I compete with my 941 in L-10 (.40 cal) and will probably use it in production once I decide on a Production load.

As for the trigger, simply add the lightest hammer spring from Wolff for the CZ/EAA and the trigger lightens and smoothes up dramaticaly; I have NEVER had a light strike with this spring (even shooting Speer/CCI ammo). you could also stone the sear/hammer surfaces though I have not had the need as the trigger is light and smooth. I am probably still just over the 5 lb 1st shot limit for IPSC although I think spring changes are not allowed in IPSC - I shoot USPSA so it is not a concern for me. Those of you outside the US could get by with trigger/sear polishing I suppose, and still have a tremendous Production gun.

I just returned last night from Israel last night where I bought some custom IMI parts from their distributor in Tel Aviv (read more about his at www.czforum.com under CZ Clones, thread Greetings from Israel) for use in L10.

As for those who bashed this gun, try again. I once had a factory STI that jammed on occasion. Do STI or SVs suck? Hardly. Both STIs and Jericho 941/BEs have many features that lend themselves to fast accurate shooting in USPSA. Mine was great right out of the box and has only gotten better with time and a lighter trigger spring. If you are looking for a great production division gun for about $400 to $450 NEW, this deserves a look.

EDIT- I realized I came off a bit rude during the last paragraph; it was not what I intended. I simply do not wish for such an excellent design to get a bad reputation due to a few (very few I believe) bad examples. Feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to address them.

[Jody Waring]

I remember hearing the 3rd place shooter at the World's shot a Jericho, out of a race holster, excuse my lack of knowledge of USPSA rules, I didn't know you needed specific holsters to compete in this division. As far as far as the .41AE, I've never heard anything positive, I believe CDNN Investments still sells barrells dirt cheap, but theres no ammo around. In these pattern of guns, Tanfoglio/CZ and all of its variants, you always hear people saying that they are 'jam-aholics', one thing to remember that OAL of ammo is very crutial as well as spring weights, and magazine quality. In my P9 I use all Tanfoglio magazines, have a few aftermarkets(practice,plinking only), anyway...........A 3rd place in production at the worlds proves that these guns are competitive, and I've seen and handled a Jericho some time back , I would think these would be wonderful competition guns especially in production with that long dustcover that standard shooters desire. The model with frame mounted saftey might even be good for Standard/Limited

[ogiebb]

i have seen couple of big dogs shoot with it back home and still kicked ass..its like my CZ 85 i get a good 5# for DA and the rest is 1.5#(for IPSC production) the gunsmith who did this for me had a jericho tweaked when i picked up mine . he showed my the trigger pull on both and they were almost identical .. just get a good gunsmith to tweak it out for you.. as they say its the shooter not the gun

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!!!!!!

[ORCA]

I have a CZ75 and I owned a Baby Eagle. Buy a CZ, get a better gun for less money. Maybe they fixed the problems with the Baby Eagle, but you couldn't give me one. I really hate the gun that much. I wouldn't want a gun that I couldn't get any factory support on. FWIW I got rid of mine for $200 and I felt like I cheated the guy. I think the CZ is the best bargain out there, the only stock gun I have that is more accurate is a HK .45 USP Expert.

[Carlos]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the BE, but you'll get no argument from me on the CZs; they are outstanding guns that are perfect for Production division - just ask forum members Ron Ankeny & Angus Hobdel (sp?), the 5th place finisher at the FGN. Both shoot CZs (with much greater skill than I can manage). I shot much of the 2003 outdoor season in Area 8 with a bone stock borrowed 75B in 9mm but the CZ you want is the CZ 85Combat. Why the 85 Combat? It is supperior to the 75B in that there is no Series 80 firing pin block on the 85 Combat. In addition, the 85 Combat has an overtravel adjustment on the trigger (no need for a custom "speed bump" on this trigger!). It comes stock without the "mag break" so you get drop free magazines unlike the 75B, it has adjustable sights, and extended mag release, ambidextrous safety and slide release and if you buy the dual tone model, the slide is non-reflective black parked to eliminate glare. I found one online for about $450 plus shipping.

[Revopop]

Just read through this thread before realizing it was ancient. The interesting thing is that it looks like all the things people liked about the BE (long dust cover, deeper grip into the beavertail, etc.) were incorporated into the SP01.