Bill Drill times

[JThompson]

You should never settle for anything being "good enough."

It is good, though, to know what's "good enough for now"... You could likely make much larger gains in the overall game by getting the rest of the game up to the level of your splits, Jim

I don't have my notes in front of me, but I recall my fastest 7 yard Bill Drill being in the 1.65 range. I haven't run them in a while, though - recoil control and fast splits at close range haven't been high on my list of practice priorities lately...

There's no doubt that I need work in many areas of my game and many of them are more important/bigger gain, than how fast I can shoot a bill drill.

[XRe]

There's no doubt that I need work in many areas of my game and many of them are more important/bigger gain, than how fast I can shoot a bill drill.

Then stop masturbating and get to work on the things that you need to start winning

[JThompson]

There's no doubt that I need work in many areas of my game and many of them are more important/bigger gain, than how fast I can shoot a bill drill.

Then stop masturbating and get to work on the things that you need to start winning

Wait, How'd you kn.... nevermind.

[BSeevers]

I'm not about argue with a couple of GMs about shooting skills. I'll concede that I've only shot USPSA for two seasons, about 50 local matches and one major match, but I've never seen a stage where raging 0.08 second splits were what separated the winners from the losers. Come to think of it, I've never seen a stage where glacial 0.15 seconds splits separated the wheat from the chafe.

The only stage where 0.08 second splits would be great is on Can You Count, in my humble 71% opinion.

Merry Christmas fellas.

mattk

I think you mean classifier? not stage?

On many stages, speed rules.

Shooting fast and accurate wins matches. And I think match winning is sometimes not related to classifier winning. One usually happens with the other but there is nothing wrong with shooting fast.

But if its all ya got. I, among many others, will beat you.

PS Never finished a stage saying I had too much ammo or shot too fast.

Edited December 26, 2007 by BSeevers

[Steve Moneypenny]

wow... kind of a waste catching up... what crazy things go on in the off season!

[boo radley]

wow... kind of a waste catching up... what crazy things go on in the off season!

I can summarize...

A 2-second Bill Drill is still a Master level pace, but 98% of the forum members have no trouble with it.

If you're going to shoot it, do so COLD, brother, the moment you leave your car! No practice runs, no dry-draws nor sight picture. Hell, try not to even look at your gun, until you're shooting.

JThompson was thinking about stringing together some sub-.10 splits, and shooting the drill in under 1 second, but has other areas of his game that need work, instead.

The drill should be all "A's", but this is overlooked -- especially on YouTube clips.

Actually, it occurs to me that this 'Skills' forum is kinda obviated by classifiers. It's easy enough to find a Classifier stage the resembles the drill you want to work on -- 06-03 would seem to tie in nicely to Bill Drills, no? And you can plug in your HF and see exactly where you stand.

[JThompson]

wow... kind of a waste catching up... what crazy things go on in the off season!

I can summarize...

A 2-second Bill Drill is still a Master level pace, but 98% of the forum members have no trouble with it.

If you're going to shoot it, do so COLD, brother, the moment you leave your car! No practice runs, no dry-draws nor sight picture. Hell, try not to even look at your gun, until you're shooting.

JThompson was thinking about stringing together some sub-.10 splits, and shooting the drill in under 1 second, but has other areas of his game that need work, instead.

The drill should be all "A's", but this is overlooked -- especially on YouTube clips.

Actually, it occurs to me that this 'Skills' forum is kinda obviated by classifiers. It's easy enough to find a Classifier stage the resembles the drill you want to work on -- 06-03 would seem to tie in nicely to Bill Drills, no? And you can plug in your HF and see exactly where you stand.

That about covers it... although my draw isn't fast enough even if I were to shoot all .08s.

I just got a call back from Competition Electronics and the did some testing on their Comp II timers. They can change the dead time to .05 without a problem. Oh my, I might have to put my money where my mouth is... I'm going to take mine to Jim and have it tweaked in the near future.

Edited December 26, 2007 by JThompson

[Ron Ankeny]

A 2-second Bill Drill is still a Master level pace, but 98% of the forum members have no trouble with it.

I posted on Glock talk the "fact" that a 2 second Bill Drill is a Master level time. That's was about how long it took Matt Burkett to post a gentle rebuttal that in his opinion a 2 second Bill Drill is no longer a Master time. A seach on GT should find the thread. I think Matt was of the opinion a 1.75 is more like a Master time. I also seriously doubt that 98% of the forum members can routinely churn out 2 second Bill Drills on demand. I would bet on it...

Don't know about anyone else, but I have shot the occasional .10 or less split with a Glock, with an XD, and with a CZ75B. If you shoot enough and "have it in you", it is goinig to happen... if you let it happen.

[BSeevers]

A 2-second Bill Drill is still a Master level pace, but 98% of the forum members have no trouble with it.

I posted on Glock talk the "fact" that a 2 second Bill Drill is a Master level time. That's was about how long it took Matt Burkett to post a gentle rebuttal that in his opinion a 2 second Bill Drill is no longer a Master time. A seach on GT should find the thread. I think Matt was of the opinion a 1.75 is more like a Master time. I also seriously doubt that 98% of the forum members can routinely churn out 2 second Bill Drills on demand. I would bet on it...

Notice that getting that .25 reduction is a big deal. Now try going from 1.75 to 1.50.

I agree that probably 98% of any group of shooters can't do a sub 2 Bill Drill on demand. That is still my measure of a Master level of skill, in that skillset. Some are faster but its a good benchmark.

[mwx40x40]

I must admit I have been staying away from this post, but I could not stand it any longer and had to take a look. It's amazing the speed some of these folks are hitting. I am just a B Class shooter and with my Ltd gun its all I can do to crank out 2.25's. As hard as I try my best draws are 1.08 but usually around 1.15 and that's after warming up. Cold I am usually 1.25. Maybe one day I'll crank out a sub second draw and a 2.00 Bill Drill.

[boo radley]

A 2-second Bill Drill is still a Master level pace, but 98% of the forum members have no trouble with it.

I posted on Glock talk the "fact" that a 2 second Bill Drill is a Master level time. That's was about how long it took Matt Burkett to post a gentle rebuttal that in his opinion a 2 second Bill Drill is no longer a Master time. A seach on GT should find the thread. I think Matt was of the opinion a 1.75 is more like a Master time. I also seriously doubt that 98% of the forum members can routinely churn out 2 second Bill Drills on demand. I would bet on it...

Don't know about anyone else, but I have shot the occasional .10 or less split with a Glock, with an XD, and with a CZ75B. If you shoot enough and "have it in you", it is goinig to happen... if you let it happen.

Well, I confess my reply was tongue-in-cheek, as you've gathered. Probably BSeevers is right -- most likely 98% of the Forum members, can't knock out a sub 2-second Bill Drill on demand. It's just that most of those responding can, so the thread gets skewed a bit.

I don't really know if 2.0 is Master class time or not; it sure seems like it, but then I'm barely an 'A'.... 1.75 seconds -- Christ, that's a 1.0 draw and hit, and 5 called .15 splits? Or some combination, thereof? On demand, that's up there.

Anyway. Interesting stuff. In my humble opinion (honestly), the magic of this drill is the difference between "6 A's as fast as you can go," vs. "As fast as you can go and hit 6 A's".

[Jake Di Vita]

I would have to say 1.75 is probably a Master time now.

[HuskySig]

I would have to say 1.75 is probably a Master time now.

For all divisions?

mattk

[Chris Keen]

........... Anyway. Interesting stuff. In my humble opinion (honestly), the magic of this drill is the difference between "6 A's as fast as you can go," vs. "As fast as you can go and hit 6 A's".

I really like the way that statement sums up what separates the good shooters from the rest.

[Jake Di Vita]

Probably just for Open. I haven't done a bill drill with a Limited gun in I don't know how long so I have no idea where I stand there.

[Paul Santiago]

speaking of bill drills.... I know, it's different. no surrender position, low power and all that but still fast.

my last time for a bill drill if i remember right was 2.31. I'm a c/d class prod/l10 with a g35.

[shred]

I would have to say 1.75 is probably a Master time now.

For all divisions?

mattk

I usually shoot just a little under 2 cold on the 7-yard string of Triple-6 (the only time I shoot BD's), and I've got quite a few Master Open plaques on the I-Love-Me wall, so it's not like you need to be able to pull a 1.75 on demand until you are waaay up the skills chain.

[Ron Ankeny]

The discussion on GT with Matt Burkett about 2 second Bill Drills was in regards to Limited. Let's get real here. Depending on where you are in your skill development and learning curve, a 2 second Bill Drill, 5 second El Pres down no more than 3 or 4 points, or a 3 inch 5 shot group at 25 yards may seem almost impossible. In reality, all of those are considered "normal" for those who can perform the task.

[Merlin Orr]

The discussion on GT with Matt Burkett about 2 second Bill Drills was in regards to Limited. Let's get real here. Depending on where you are in your skill development and learning curve, a 2 second Bill Drill, 5 second El Pres down no more than 3 or 4 points, or a 3 inch 5 shot group at 25 yards may seem almost impossible. In reality, all of those are considered "normal" for those who can perform the task.

Ron.. At what point/level (USPSA Classification) would you personally consider the above feats to be "normal?"

[JThompson]

The discussion on GT with Matt Burkett about 2 second Bill Drills was in regards to Limited. Let's get real here. Depending on where you are in your skill development and learning curve, a 2 second Bill Drill, 5 second El Pres down no more than 3 or 4 points, or a 3 inch 5 shot group at 25 yards may seem almost impossible. In reality, all of those are considered "normal" for those who can perform the task.

Ron.. At what point/level (USPSA Classification) would you personally consider the above feats to be "normal?"

B class open Merlin.

[Ron Ankeny]

Ron.. At what point/level (USPSA Classification) would you personally consider the above feats to be "normal?"

High Master PPC shooters and good bullseye shooters really aren't all that impressed with a 3 inch group unless it is all X's with a flier. It might be normal for a "cross over" shooter to have that skill set before their first IPSC match

As for the El Pres and Bill Drills, I would dare say those times on those drills would be normal for the likes of Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham, ...oh wait a minute...are those guys "normal"? Seriously, from my personal experience and the guys I know, I would say deep, deep into Master class if not GM.

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree...although I would compare a 5 second El Pres with 2 or 3 down with around a 1.5 - 1.7 bill drill instead of 2.0.

But yeah, those guys are normal. They have just put the work in required to get there...which may make them not normal after all.

[HoMiE]

When you are saying 5 second El Prez, is that like 5.xx or sub-5 seconds, 4.9x?

[JThompson]

When you are saying 5 second El Prez, is that like 5.xx or sub-5 seconds, 4.9x?

Anything under 6 isn't bad. A 5.4 down 5 will give you just over a 10hf and that's a low M run.

Edited December 28, 2007 by JThompson

[Ron Ankeny]

I have been struggling horribly these last few months with some physical difficulties, so much so that I have relinquished my Master Card in all six divisions and moved down to A class across the board. I have shot two local club matches since mid Septemebr and that's the only time I have shot a handgun. By my own admission, I am not much of a shooter right now.

I can tell you that I kept very precise training records for several years and I know what the realtionship is (for me) between classifier scores on game day and practice times on various drills. FWIW, the El Pres I am describing is an 11 hit factor and I am talking about 2 second Bill Drills with any platform keeping them in the A box. Those kinds of draws, transitions, splits, and reloads will net the shooter GM scores on many "stand and deliver" classifiers in all iron sighted divisions and maybe even in Open Division. Until I went half blind, Open was always my weakest division so I'll defer to Jake on that account.

Am I saying a person needs to have a GM or M card to perform at the level being discussed? No, not at all. What I am saying is I think we can reasonably expect a GM ,or really solid high M class shooter, to perform at that level and better most of the time when they grip it and rip it and are not being conservative, as in a title is not on the line. But, while I am on a roll, let me say I have shot a lot of classifiers in the 85-100 per cent range (L, L10, Production) in the last five years when my par El Pres was closer to the mid and high fives and my Bill Drills ran around 2.3 seconds. During that time I never understood how people with shooting skill sets far superior to mine were not handing me my butt on the Mini-Mart, Bang and Clang, Front Sight, etc.