Bill Drill times

[ebg3]

Best so far with M&P Pro is 1.79sec at 8 yards(just what it happened to be) out of a Bladetech holster. I can go low 1.7's but not with all A's all the time. No problem getting first shots off in the mid .8's just can't get my splits below .17-.18. I guess I should be practicing right now.

[CHA-LEE]

JThompson> I understand your points as we have all done it. But the purpose of a Bill Drill is to shoot all Alpha's as fast as you can. Not shoot as many Alpha's as you can and if you get some Charlie’s its ok. Those two drills are really two different skill tests. Since the topic of this thread is about Bill Drill Times, then it makes sense to point out that the drill requires all Alpha hits to be a valid execution of the drill. I am sure people can lop off a good chunk of time on their run if a Charlie here or there was acceptable. But it isn't so its not a valid time measurement for what is considered a Bill Drill.

I just seen some people posting their Bill Drill times with points down and wanted to point out that their X Points down Bill Drill run is not a valid time because they are not completing the skill test of the drill correctly. The Bill Drill is all alpha's or it does not count. One non-Alpha hit negates the run no matter how fast it is.

If this ruffles peoples feathers then sorry. It is what it is. I am just pointing out the obvious.

[Flexmoney]

Charlie = Fail.

Or, in the wise words of Pink Floyd.....Wroooong...doit a'gain.

You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!

[benos]

Charlie = Fail.

Or, in the wise words of Pink Floyd.....Wroooong...doit a'gain.

You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!

Right. If it's not all A's then you did not shoot a Bill Drill.

[JThompson]

JThompson> I understand your points as we have all done it. But the purpose of a Bill Drill is to shoot all Alpha's as fast as you can. Not shoot as many Alpha's as you can and if you get some Charlie’s its ok. Those two drills are really two different skill tests. Since the topic of this thread is about Bill Drill Times, then it makes sense to point out that the drill requires all Alpha hits to be a valid execution of the drill. I am sure people can lop off a good chunk of time on their run if a Charlie here or there was acceptable. But it isn't so its not a valid time measurement for what is considered a Bill Drill.

I just seen some people posting their Bill Drill times with points down and wanted to point out that their X Points down Bill Drill run is not a valid time because they are not completing the skill test of the drill correctly. The Bill Drill is all alpha's or it does not count. One non-Alpha hit negates the run no matter how fast it is.

If this ruffles peoples feathers then sorry. It is what it is. I am just pointing out the obvious.

No feathers ruffled Charlie, I've always had a "rules" issue. Also, if you think about the drill there should be a limit on how many times you run it. I mean you could sit there and run it 200 times and post some incredible time, but could you do that cold? I think we need to amend the "Bill Drill" to 6 Alphas cold... no warm up draws either.

Edited July 15, 2009 by JThompson

[CHA-LEE]

Who cares what the time is as long as you are learning the lesson the drill is attempting to teach you? You could simply move the target closer or further away by a couple of yards and then be challenged with learning a whole new lesson in what you need to see and feel in order to shoot the drill to the best of your ability.

Here is another example, I could point shoot the bill drill by looking at the target and not looking at the sights at all and still get all alpha hits. This is a lesson and not one at the same time. I learned that I can still point shoot the target and get good hits fairly fast by just looking at the target. But it does NOTHING for teaching me how to quickly process the sight picture and call the shot for every shot that breaks.

So you tell me, what good does an uber crazy fast time for a Bill Drill gain me if I have not learned the intended lesson? I could care less what any of my Drill times are as long as I am learning what I need to learn for that given drill. Sure you can use prior times as a gauge of progression of skills, but the only times that really count for that comparison are your own times. Not someone else’s.

[JThompson]

As I said before, I don't care if I throw a C as long as I called it a C. That means I was seeing enough to call it... The "drill" doesn't teach me I learn from doing and it's this rigid adherence to, I said so tactics, I have issue with.

I'm a fat 44 year old who started shooting 1.5 years ago, went straight to open and made Master in that time... I think what I've been doing and how I'm learning is of use to me and I don't care much who thinks I'm doing it wrong. Everyone doesn't learn the same and I learn more from figuring out why I missed than I do going so slow i don't.

A lot of people simply regurgitate what they have read or heard without taking the time to see if other ways have merit or the time to find out why what was said was said. To simply state something as fact without your own empirical data is unwise. For example, my bad wrist makes a conventional grip impossible, therefore what everyone else does is of little use to me because I can't do it that way. Take the time to learn what works for you and why.... There are very few absolutes in shooting or anything else for that matter.

"Time has little to do with infinity or jelly doughnuts"

JT

Edited July 13, 2009 by JThompson

[Flexmoney]

Who cares what the time is as long as you are learning the lesson the drill is attempting to teach you?

That there is a nugget of wisdom.

The drill isn't just time. It isn't just Alpahs. It the combination of the two. That provided the extra tests (pressures).

[mike4045]

Shot it in a match. I will take the run. I normally run about 2.3 or 2.4 clean in practice. It was cold and the first stage of the day.

[ebg3]

Best so far with M&P Pro is 1.79sec at 8 yards(just what it happened to be) out of a Bladetech holster. I can go low 1.7's but not with all A's all the time. No problem getting first shots off in the mid .8's just can't get my splits below .17-.18. I guess I should be practicing right now.

I shot a 1.83 cold today with the above equipment. I also ran a 1.86 on three targets, spaced 18" apart; this run was NOT a cold run--I could reliably do it in the high 1.90's though. Distance was 7 yards. I felt like I could see my sights and know where my shots were going on the three target Bill Drill better than on just one target. My times were a bit slower on the three targets but I had all A's more often. I bet if I ran the single target drill in the same time as the three target drill I would see beter. Oh well, more practice.

EG

[little_kahuna]

In Limited with a 6" fatfree STI, .40 major:

I've spent mutiple practice sessions working bill drills at various ranges, and at 10 yards, with all alphas, I can pretty consistenly do ~1.75 runs. 5-7 yards puts me at ~1.40 as my fastest time. I've done faster, but I drop points, or it isn't fluid/smooth, running on the hairy edge could drop your times, but if it doesnt feel good then whats the point?

I think the way to win a bil drill is to master the "aggressive" draw, (to draw like you were drawing on a 2 yard target, as fast and smooth as possible) and watch your sights as you roll with the gun through the recoil into the next shot minimizing split times.

I mostly use this drill to re-time myself to a new load, or if something functionally on a gun has changed. Anything that would have changd the timing of a gun (or me).

[Silver_Surfer]

Who cares what the time is as long as you are learning the lesson the drill is attempting to teach you?

That there is a nugget of wisdom.

The drill isn't just time. It isn't just Alpahs. It the combination of the two. That provided the extra tests (pressures).

Just like the "El Prez"

[jwrig]

does the improvement in time (from B or C shooter) come more from the splits or the draw? Or, do they come down equally, ie 50% each for the two components?

[Resjudicata]

does the improvement in time (from B or C shooter) come more from the splits or the draw? Or, do they come down equally, ie 50% each for the two components?

Time improvement probably more from the draw. However, this is the time to really start seeing the sights so you can call those shots and work the trigger more consistantly. You should be able to know in the middle of a run whether your hits are in the A or if you drop one.

Chris

[Bongo Boy]

I don't want to go rogue here but how are you guys able to do bill drills and use a shot timer--are you shooting these drills under typical outdoor stage conditions (one shooter)? I can only shoot them indoors, and so would have to choose just the right moment when no one else was shooting or maybe someone shooting .22. Just curious.

I did my first-ever bill drills today, untimed...and only want to say they sure are fun. Saw dramatic recovery control after only about 4 drills. Wow. Where's that Roadway truck with my free ammo?

Edited December 3, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[Field]

Just got back from the range. Shot a few bill drills. One of them was 1.72 all A's. Not a smoking time by any means, but i could fit the group in my palm and also saw a perfect razor sharp sight picture for each shot. Time seemed to slow down. That's never happened like that before and I thought it was pretty cool.

i dont get it were you on a B-vitamin high or something like that. LOL

[Jake Di Vita]

Holy 7 years ago post.

What don't you get?

[Field]

wow dude im sorry you joined in february of 02

[madworx]

Shot this "bill drill" for the first time today in practice and managed a 2.35 all A's I'm a B class production shooter that rarely practices (just shoot a couple local matches per month). Props to you guys that have this drill well under 2 secs. I'm gonna get to that point one of these days! Thanks for the inspiration!

[GM2B]

1.8 when on fire. 2.0 all day. Not sure what this translates to in a match... But it sure is fun to do!

[Grump]

Old thread but there must be some interest remaining.

Finally read the whole this this morning. Interesting points.

All due respect to BE, but I believe that posting a FAIL Bill Drill time with points down counts as an attempt at the exercise. Of course, any FAIL in a *drill* which is a pass/fail (see more below) usually has value IF the shooter is seeing, feeling, and learning. So I don't mind points-down times being posted.

That said, the BD is to me different in structure and purpose than most others--it is an accuracy-first drill with increasing speed as its goal. Being a guy who used to shoot regular Bullseye with his Dad years ago but never in a match, that leisurely 5 shots in 10 seconds 1-handed at 25 yards even today is a huge challenge for me to pull off with any centerfire without flinching one shot, if not two! I've hit 90 points CF on that, my lifetime high is 98 with RF, and the 10-ring in that game is the same at 25-yd TF (20-second strings) and RF stages as it is at 50 yards slow fire--3.375 inch.

I've always resisted the BD because I thought it burned up too much ammo per data point obtained (minimum time to draw and shoot 6 As). But this discussion has me ready to go do 3-6 runs next time I'm out, and AFTER some dry-fire draw sessions a few times over the next week. At minimum, there's the first-round skill set, AND five splits to consider as learning opportunities.

There's wisdom in the observation about how fast to shoot all As, vs. increasing the A-count to 6 while shooting as fast as one can. Slightly different phrasing from me, but IMO the idea is identical and the distinction is valid.

What has me encouraged is that my un-timed splits shooting a little steel target at 10 yards (I think it's about 10 inches high and 7 inches wide, roughly IPSC target shaped [see more below]) were pretty fast for me when I was out on the 4th. First shot on the draw is where I'm way, way down on the skills totem pole.

BTW, is anyone else just a teeny bit bugged that the "head" in IPSC and IDPA targets is really the neck to the chin? I have idle thoughts that this convenience in drawing target shapes and having cutouts that don't nod excessively in the wind is a dis-service to defensive skills, since the real practical target requires a hit probably 7 inches higher than the A-box. For that reason, I like the Front Sight FTC paper targets better, but I DON'T like their generous center zone and also how they disregard hits lower in the torso. I also prefer PPC-size scoring rings if they are put where they should be, for their correlation to the size of max-effectiveness hits in the [cliche' alert!!!] real world.

Just thinkin'.

[a matt]

I can't draw to a berm in much less than 2.0, much less pull off 5 or 6 Azome hits at 7 to 10 yards Bwaaaaa

Edited July 15, 2013 by a matt

[Chris iliff]

By definition a Bill Drill is one target 7 yards surrender start.

I have made great strides in shooting them from 5-50 yards in my development

This guy has forgotten more about shooting than most of us will learn. Good stuff right there.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Chris iliff

[Chris iliff]

possible learning points:

- if your hits are spread out, you grip and stance need work...to allow you to return the gun to target.

- if your hits favor a side of the target, then your index (point) is off

- slow splits...could be the above, or a combination of...requiring the shooter to muscle the gun back on target. could be the grip and stance need work.

- trigger freeze....trying, tension, over-gripping with the strong hand

- hits that are spread high and low...timing issue.

- splits that are all over the map...see all the above.

- slow draw...could be lots of things...often is a lazy weak-hand, not moving in syn with the strong hand.

I re-posted some relevant info. Bill drills done properly teach sooooooo much stuff it is crazy. Grip, timing, trigger to name just three.

Lastly, it's about TIME. But, yes, most Master Class shooters are below 2 sec.

If they are not all in the A zone,..........it's not a Bill Drill. Frankly, I don't know what it is called then, FBD maybe. Hmmmmm

Shooting fast is what we do. It amazes me that some people I know are still shooting the same speed that they have always shot and will probably never get a wink better. Keeping them in the A and learning what that takes at high speed is what we should strive for if we want to get better. The Bill Drill is a pretty good ticket to punch every once in awhile.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Chris iliff

[Blujay291]

What is a bill drill again sorry?