Bill Drill times

[Grump]

Okay, it's been almost a month, but here's the drill (*as I have been told*):

Start position: Surrender

Target: 1 at seven (7) yards

Run cold, first shots fired that day.

The drill IS all A hits. Period. Time don't mean squat if you leak one out of the A zone. Did it last Saturday and looked over the gun about shot 4 or 5 and put one in the head's B zone (on a re-shoot) with a time in the mid-4s, IIRC the right time for that string.

Had to slow down to 5.11 to get all As. Ick. Yup, re-shoot so that part of the purist definition is not met. But I am running a non-competitive retention strap rig and a DA/SA semiauto. And I'm slow compared to these whizzes.

And then I realized I did them all at 10 yards!!!! Based on dispersion all but my second run would have been all As. We're talking out by a half-inch most of the time, and 1 shot, one string was two shots out when my grip fell apart.

Me, I'd like to know the times for people doing 10-, 15, 20- and 25-yard versions of the Bill Drill.

If I push it, I might be able to approach these "average" times just getting all hits on brown, forget about going for all As.

Gotta work on that draw time.

[rowdyb]

2.5 to 3.0 for about the past 20 that i've shot. surrender, 7yrds, all A or -0 if idpa target. any points down = failure and no "score". i agree you can learn soo much from bill drills. i was trying to decide tomorrows practice for live fire and now I have. 10 bill drills and then some other stuff.

[Grump]

4.11, 7 yards, .45 with lighter loads, PF 150 or a bit higher.

I had suspected for years that part of this particular game is learning the rhythm of one's recoil "bounce", and letting your eyes control the trigger.

.35 ish splits at 7, so I think getting at least a half-second faster on the draw is the next thing for me.

[BSeevers]

By definition a Bill Drill is one target 7 yards surrender start.

I have made great strides in shooting them from 5-50 yards in my development

This guy has forgotten more about shooting than most of us will learn. Good stuff right there.

What guy?

Thanks Chris

As an aside I did a 1.41, my personal best, a couple weeks ago

[BEC]

Using the times here, I think I'll give it a try................... .

[motosapiens]

I may not have any credibility as a new-ish shooter (about to jump to B's), but I disagree with the whole concept of the 'pass fail' way of looking at it, at least for people that are still in the early stages of their learning curve. A guy I saw on video once, I think his name was rob something or other, just adds .2 for each charlie, which seems reasonable to me since that's pretty close to what it would actually cost you in hit factor. Thinking of it like that allows me to better assess how much I really need to see, and how much extra time I can take to see that much.

I also find it useful to occasionally worry less about the a-zone, and just put 6 shots anywhere on paper as fast as i can a couple times (usually noticeably faster than my all-A's or 5-A's runs), and then see if I can tighten up the group into the A-zone without giving back too much of that speed. Maybe it's just me, but I don't seem to be able to just push my speed without at least temporarily relaxing control to get a feel for it.

[a matt]

We should be able to figure hit factors without the .2 estimate. Actual points divided time leave the decimal in.

So if you shot the Bill drill in 2.4 with 2 C's = 10.833 so all A's would be 12.5 but if you add .2 per C you had two C's your hit factor would be 10.7. Looks just about right if you add .2 to the time per each C, that Rob guy must be pretty smart fellow. Please don't ask me to do this again I already have a headache. Lol

Dang, Seevers had a 1.41 all A's = 21 plus fit factor. WOW!

Edited August 23, 2013 by a matt

[crowmag]

I shot it today with my open gun 1.68 and limited gun with a time 1.74 all A's this was my first time shooting this drill I will add it to my list of drills to do.

[Grump]

Another testament to dry-fire works.

At least I'm improving.

But even going with a speed holster (being an old hiker and Scout and stuff I go for retention straps, thumb breaks and all that), my fastest first shot is unreliably 1.1, and 1.3 is more doable on demand with A-Zone at 7-10 yards awareness and control.

A lot of you guys are done about the time I'm getting shot #2 off.

So, for box-stock, single-stack .45s without weights and compensator, same "duty rig" configuration for a WonderNine or a Glock, what are good times for a Bill Drill? The timing of my muzzle flip and bouncedown with either gun really limits me to splits of .25-.3 at 10 yards, probably .22-.25 at 7.

I'm going to be watching the role of my support hand here, but what else can help speed the draw? Slow is smooth and smooth is fast and all that, but right now a 1-second draw for me would be a DQ shot into the dirt just as the muzzle tips away from the holster.

Theoretical math puts my stock gun BD attainable goal at 2.55. Mid-3s right now, there's usually one shot that recoils high (grip gets sloppy, then aware of too much OTHER stuff and fight the mental game for splits) and slows me down.

Would 2.55 at 7 yds box-stock gun be okay or is that performance way at the back of the pack? I didn't ask this back in the summer, did I???

Weightlifting + more deathgrip on gun?

[crowmag]

It has been about a month and I have shot the bill drill a couple times a week. I shot with my open gun a 1.46 with splits of 70,20,18,19,19 and a 1.47 splits .69,18,21,19,20.

With my limited tonight I shot a 1.43 splits .67,17,21,19,19 and a 1.47 .69,18,20,20,20. all A's

[motosapiens]

Another testament to dry-fire works.

At least I'm improving.

But even going with a speed holster (being an old hiker and Scout and stuff I go for retention straps, thumb breaks and all that), my fastest first shot is unreliably 1.1, and 1.3 is more doable on demand with A-Zone at 7-10 yards awareness and control.

A lot of you guys are done about the time I'm getting shot #2 off.

So, for box-stock, single-stack .45s without weights and compensator, same "duty rig" configuration for a WonderNine or a Glock, what are good times for a Bill Drill? The timing of my muzzle flip and bouncedown with either gun really limits me to splits of .25-.3 at 10 yards, probably .22-.25 at 7.

You don't mention what class you currently are, or maybe you mentioned it earlier and I forgot. 2.55 in practice is imho a really good time for a c-class shooter, and an acceptable time for a b-class shooter. I did many bill drills over the summer with my plain old 1911, starting in the mid 3's and worked my way down to a solid 2.5-2.7 (done cold, as my first drill of the day).

I wouldn't stress too much about it. You will find as you practice more that your splits and draw time both gradually improve, but they are just about the least important aspects of shooting for field courses, so I would spend more time on acccuracy, movement and transitions. When I do work on things, I would start with grip. Everything else only works if you get a good consistent grip.

[BSeevers]

Time doesn't matter if you are not getting all A's. I find the internet is like the bar stool sometimes. Easy to give out fast run times and such vs let's go practice saturday. Not picking on anyone specific just trying to help out those guys running 2.5-4 sec and "worried" Bill drill's are a means to an end. You are trying to be a "total" shooter. Well, I am.

What are your 12 yard Bill Drill times? 25? 50?

How many of you do you do head shot only bill drills?

If you aren't doing these, don't worry, only your competition is.

I also like to check my just put the gear on, cold run, vs a grooved in run. Now as your skills progress they almost become the same times and that is a great goal to be after.

[Grump]

I'm a lurker (mostly?) who hasn't shot an IPSC match since just before I got married. That was my first with a semiauto (long story, new mag, the only match I've ever taken dead last in), only 2-3 others before then with a 4" .357 Mag back when they still let civvies use duty rigs.

It was what I had at the time.

I'm here to learn and figure out ways to build my skills in between sporadic shooting sessions. So no, I'm not classified. Really don't expect to join up for maybe another year.

Been running them with a 1911 the past half-dozen times. Easy gun to like. Bullseye with that aggravating slow-fire target at 50 yards is even getting better. After two strings of that, the A zone at 7 yards looks downright huge.

Splits are reliably .3 now, with only one shot out of the A when I flub it up. Gotta work on that draw now.

[motosapiens]

Time doesn't matter if you are not getting all A's.

Rob Leatham *seems* to think otherwise. At least that's what videos of his training tips suggest.

I am nowhere near his level, but it also makes sense to me that since we accept charlies in field courses (with the appropriate penalty), we can also accept them in drills (with the appropriate penalty). In fact, it can be a valuable exercise to get a better feel for when it is worth it to see just a little bit more in order to *guarantee* A-zone hits.

Great point about cold runs, btw. I've taken to starting off every live-fire session with basic drill (bill drill, el prez, etc....) just to get more comfortable with that first stage in a match.

[BSeevers]

Time doesn't matter if you are not getting all A's.

Rob Leatham *seems* to think otherwise. At least that's what videos of his training tips suggest.

I am nowhere near his level, but it also makes sense to me that since we accept charlies in field courses (with the appropriate penalty), we can also accept them in drills (with the appropriate penalty). In fact, it can be a valuable exercise to get a better feel for when it is worth it to see just a little bit more in order to *guarantee* A-zone hits.

Great point about cold runs, btw. I've taken to starting off every live-fire session with basic drill (bill drill, el prez, etc....) just to get more comfortable with that first stage in a match

Mama's wrong again Its a joke

Rob is probably talking in the context of learning to shoot fast. Yes in your quest to go from say a B to an A you often need to "teach" yourself to "go fast" Not being concerned about points on a drill is a good technique to help teach this. I have taken many a student and just had them shoot against the berm as fast as you can, that is another way to do this.

BUT as your skills progress you must shoot points. Like BE said. I found out that I could shoot A's as fast as I could shoot anything else. When you understand and live that quote I think you can go on to a higher level of shooting.

I am not speaking for Rob but I'll bet he avocates A's over other hits in competition, Check out the big boys results,the winner usually has 92++% points and the fast or close to fastest time. See the BE quote for what's going on

Now a slow A is not better than a fast C in general, so there is an "Art" to this. Drills are to teach you something but the match shows if you can apply it.

Edited October 17, 2013 by BSeevers

[Flexmoney]

The drill is specific. All Alphas. Not that there isn't learning to be had by shooting a different standard, just that this drill is for all Alphas.

[motosapiens]

The drill is specific. All Alphas. Not that there isn't learning to be had by shooting a different standard, just that this drill is for all Alphas.

Okay, then we can do a different drill and call it a Rob drill. I think that can be a valuable learning/training tool. Probably more valuable than hitting all alphas, since I have yet to ever hear of a shooter hitting all alpha's who won a match.

[Flexmoney]

You can call it the rooty tooty point and shooty if you like. Still, isn't a Bill Drill.

[motosapiens]

You can call it the rooty tooty point and shooty if you like. Still, isn't a Bill Drill.

Doesn't bother me if you think that.

[Chris iliff]

You can call it the rooty tooty point and shooty if you like. Still, isn't a Bill Drill.

That is the funniest thing I've heard in awhile. I am a stickler for the EXACT BILL DRILL.

7 yards, surrender draw, all A's.

I often wondered what to call it when I didn't get all A's, thanks Flex, "rooty tooty point and shooty" it will be.

Geez I can't quit laughing. That is funny stuff. Lol

[a matt]

I went to do some bill drills, but ended doing the rooty, tooty, shooty drill, lol. T-3 changed the drill. A-C 5 times. Then I had to do some outer drills. Lol

[motosapiens]

You can call it the rooty tooty point and shooty if you like. Still, isn't a Bill Drill.

That is the funniest thing I've heard in awhile. I am a stickler for the EXACT BILL DRILL.

7 yards, surrender draw, all A's.

so what do you do when you don't get all A's? just keep shooting it over and over until you do finally get all A's and record that time?

I find it more useful and pertinent to uspsa shooting to just record the time and points.

[Flexmoney]

so what do you do when you don't get all A's? just keep shooting it over and over until you do finally get all A's and record that time?

Over and over? Finally? Is it hard to get all Alphas?

I find it more useful and pertinent to uspsa shooting to just record the time and points.

There is nothing wrong with that. It is just that this thread is asking about times on the actual Bill Drill.

[motosapiens]

so what do you do when you don't get all A's? just keep shooting it over and over until you do finally get all A's and record that time?

Over and over? Finally? Is it hard to get all Alphas?

Depends if you're shooting at match pace or not. Most top shooters seem to compete at a pace where they can only get 60-80% or so alphas on most stages.

[Flexmoney]

Depends if you're shooting at match pace or not. Most top shooters seem to compete at a pace where they can only get 60-80% or so alphas on most stages.

All of those shooters would FAIL at said drill, since the drill...you know...requires ALL alphas.

That is not to say that there isn't learning to be had from said failure. Heck, we could all pitch in and get them a medal!