Bill Drill times

[rowdyb]

2.3 to 2.4 cold.

[motosapiens]

Hey, that looks like a top-in-class award, lol.

[Chris iliff]

You can call it the rooty tooty point and shooty if you like. Still, isn't a Bill Drill.

That is the funniest thing I've heard in awhile. I am a stickler for the EXACT BILL DRILL.

7 yards, surrender draw, all A's.

so what do you do when you don't get all A's? just keep shooting it over and over until you do finally get all A's and record that time?

I find it more useful and pertinent to uspsa shooting to just record the time and points.

If someone asks me my best Bill Drill time, I tell them, 1.87 sec. Get it? Not down anything, all A's, surrender draw, 7 Yards. That makes it a Bill Drill. I learned a ton doing all the "rooty tooty point and shooty drills" though. They actually helped me do my best Bill Drill. I never burn a drill into the ground, always seems self defeating. I'd run the rooty tooty 4-5 times, usually get several Bill Drills out of it. Usually at the start of a practice, cold.

I'm chuckling again.

[Nimitz]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the BD, it's about getting all As as fast as you can, not about 90% As or some random HF or sub 2 secs but all As. It's pass/fail because guess what? If you can't get all As then you need to make changes in your grip, trigger control, darw, indexing, sigt management, etc, until you can do it. No one said you don't lean things even if you don't get all As but the point is to learn what you DO need to do to get all As. The pass/fail aspect of the drill is to reinforce that you must get all As. For me, if I don't get all As on a run I do not look at my time because I did not accomplish the goal correctly and by looking at the time I would start to rationalize errors I'm making. However, analyzing your technique by studying where your hits ended up it critically important and the entire point of doing the drill. everyone should copy Flex's post and bring it with them to the range - I certainly do ....

The goal in our sport still remains the same: shoot all As as fast as you can, not shoot as fast as you can and try to get all As. I believe the BD can be looked at as the embodiment of that goal.

[Chris iliff]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the BD, it's about getting all As as fast as you can, not about 90% As or some random HF or sub 2 secs but all As. It's pass/fail because guess what? If you can't get all As then you need to make changes in your grip, trigger control, darw, indexing, sigt management, etc, until you can do it. No one said you don't lean things even if you don't get all As but the point is to learn what you DO need to do to get all As. The pass/fail aspect of the drill is to reinforce that you must get all As. For me, if I don't get all As on a run I do not look at my time because I did not accomplish the goal correctly and by looking at the time I would start to rationalize errors I'm making. However, analyzing your technique by studying where your hits ended up it critically important and the entire point of doing the drill. everyone should copy Flex's post and bring it with them to the range - I certainly do ....

The goal in our sport still remains the same: shoot all As as fast as you can, not shoot as fast as you can and try to get all As. I believe the BD can be looked at as the embodiment of that goal.

If the " rooty tooty " stuff hadn't been thrown out there by Flex, I'd have posted the clear, concise, stuff Nimitz posted above. PERFECT.

[Nimitz]

Now if I could just shoot at the same level I can communicate ...

[motosapiens]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point of the BD, it's about getting all As as fast as you can, not about 90% As or some random HF or sub 2 secs but all As. It's pass/fail because guess what? If you can't get all As then you need to make changes in your grip, trigger control, darw, indexing, sigt management, etc, until you can do it.

that's one opinion, and it's not wrong, but certainly some pretty accomplished shooters (like rob leatham) seem to take a slightly less rigorous approach to the drill as far as something to work on for improvement (not just as an internet dick-swinging exercise to post your bestest most awesomest most rootin-tootinest times).

I'm not accomplished enough really second-guess anyone else's training strategy, but to me, since pretty much every uspsa stage is scored on HF rather than pass/fail, it make sense to also use a HF-based assessment method in training.

IMHO the problem with focusing on getting all A's (for anything other than the internet dick-swinging contest) is that in general, you will lose matches if you get all A's, because you will be shooting too slowly.

Using an HF-based assessment method may help you to figure out how much you really need to see to shoot as fast as you can and collect points as fast as you can. If you hit all A's, you are probably not collecting points as fast as you can.

Of course we're probably talking about two different things: one is training and practicing to improve, and one is posting standardized drill times on the internet.

[Flexmoney]

Glad you have it all figured out.

[motosapiens]

Glad you have it all figured out.

thanks for your encouragement and sincerity. On some forums reasonable differences of opinion are treated with ridicule and insults. Glad it's different here.

Edited October 21, 2013 by motosapiens

[Flexmoney]

... some forums reasonable differences of opinion are treated with ridicule ...

Yeah, those "internet dick-swinging contests" are something else.

Perhaps I can steer us back by sharing some shooting realizations that some may not yet have experienced.

Many shooters still tend to pit accuracy against speed. The thinking there is that you have to give up one to get the other. That need not be the case. At some level, it certainly isn't the case with regards to a Bill Drill at under 10y.

My best Bill Drill was run with consistent splits, at about my speed limit. And, with a draw near my speed limit. My group was about 3x3 inches, well within the A-zone.

More than that, I saw the whole thing. And, that is part of the point of the drill, in my mind. This drill can teach one to shoot fast and accurately. You can learn to see the gun, thus learn to drive the gun. You can learn to relax and shoot without tension. Or, if you are going to be tense, you can learn technique that lessens the impact of that tension (on both your speed and your accuracy).

If you duff a shot out of the Alpha, there is a reason for that. Find it. Fix it. If you shoot some other pattern with your hits, there is a reason for that. Learn from it. Correct it.

I can bet that the best hit factor that one is able to achieve on a Bill Drill will be done with all Alpha hits. At some point, you will be going as fast as you can go. And, at some point, your technique will bring the gun back into the Alpha at that speed. If not, you have work to do yet to reach your potential.

[Gentleman4561]

I hover in the 2-2.5 second range.

[38supPat]

Hmmm, I think many have lost sight of what the Bill Drill is. I see videos all the time where guys sling 6 hits on a steel target (anywhere on a steel target) and claim Worlds fastest Bill Drill! As far as I'm concerned you should be shooting it with a par time and that par time should be set to where you can just barely shoot all A's. If you drop a point, its a fail.

Lets go back to Brians book where he describes the Bill Drill

At 7yards, starting from a surrender position, draw and fire 6 shots into an IPSC target. They have to be all A's or it doesn't count. At the Master level the time limit is 2 seconds. If you can't make the 2 seconds at 7 yards, try 3 seconds, or with the modern timers, you can make it 2.7 seconds or whatever you want it to be. Use whatever limit is keeping you honest; whatever is keeping you on the ragged edge of keeping the shots in the A box. Don't make it too easy. When you first start oit you may be able to all your shots in one-of-five runs, but when you can do it five-of-five, cut your time limit down.

This is a timing drill that puts emphasis on shooting as quickly as possible and holding the gun in the A box as best as possible. So the whole thing is that you need to be in control of the guns muzzle direction; you need to get it into the A-box and keep it there. However you manage to do that is what you learn. And the best input there is watching the front sight's relationship to the rear sight. By watching it rise up and down you can just keep driving the gun right into the A-box.

The key here is to see what you need to get all A's. At 7 yards it doesn't take much skill at all to fling 6 shots anywhere on the target in 2 seconds

[Silver_Surfer]

My fastest was 1.9's back to back. two strings. But 8 alpha 4 charlies. Shooting all "A's" is boring the charlie area gets lonely

Edited December 18, 2013 by Silver_Surfer

[Nimitz]

Ok, that's your best Rootie Tootie ... time, so what's your best Bill Drill time? Mine is 2.27 but I usually average around 2.5-2.7

[Silver_Surfer]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

[motosapiens]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

Remember that if they get any non-A hits, the competitors will zero the stage, or else the internet police won't let you call it a bill-drill.

[Silver_Surfer]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

Remember that if they get any non-A hits, the competitors will zero the stage, or else the internet police won't let you call it a bill-drill.

Hummm is it legal to cutout the A-zone from a no-shot and overlay it on a shoot target?

Edited December 24, 2013 by Silver_Surfer

[Nimitz]

I'm certainly no rules expert but I thought I read that as long at least 25% or maybe 50% of the A zone is visible its legal so the full A zone would be good to go ...

I like it! Should guarantee you actually get folk's real Bill Drill times instead of all those Rootie Tootie times I keep seeing posted ...

Edited December 24, 2013 by Nimitz

[Silver_Surfer]

I'm certainly no rules expert but I thought I read that as long at least 25% or maybe 50% of the A zone is visible its legal so the full A zone would be good to go ...

I like it! Should guarantee you actually get folk's real Bill Drill times instead of all those Rootie Tootie times I keep seeing posted ...

i have not been able to find the term "Rootie Tootie" in the rule book.

[Nimitz]

That's why we have this forum ...

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I'm certainly no rules expert but I thought I read that as long at least 25% or maybe 50% of the A zone is visible its legal so the full A zone would be good to go ...

I like it! Should guarantee you actually get folk's real Bill Drill times instead of all those Rootie Tootie times I keep seeing posted ...

I suspect it would not result in times representative of proper bill drills. At least not for the mortals I shoot with.

[Chris iliff]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

Remember that if they get any non-A hits, the competitors will zero the stage, or else the internet police won't let you call it a bill-drill.

Nope, you get your points. But, also the shame of shooting a Rootie Tootie instead of a Bill Drill.

Stage should be named, "Bill Drill or Rootie Tootie, Shooters Choice".

[motosapiens]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

Remember that if they get any non-A hits, the competitors will zero the stage, or else the internet police won't let you call it a bill-drill.

Nope, you get your points. But, also the shame of shooting a Rootie Tootie instead of a Bill Drill.

Stage should be named, "Bill Drill or Rootie Tootie, Shooters Choice".

Got a current classifier or two that need to have their names changed too, in order to meet with police approval, cuz they count the c's and d's.

Edited January 1, 2014 by motosapiens

[Chris iliff]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

Remember that if they get any non-A hits, the competitors will zero the stage, or else the internet police won't let you call it a bill-drill.

Nope, you get your points. But, also the shame of shooting a Rootie Tootie instead of a Bill Drill.

Stage should be named, "Bill Drill or Rootie Tootie, Shooters Choice".

Got a current classifier or two that need to have their names changed too, in order to meet with police approval, cuz they count the c's and d's.

Same thing, you get the points AND the shame for going Rootie Tootie.

Edited to add:

Actually, I should have looked first, ..........

There is no classifier entitled "Bill Drill". There is something close to the name, but far more complicated than an actual Bill Drill.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Chris iliff

[motosapiens]

LOL, I'm playing MD in Feb. will inc a Bill stage.

Remember that if they get any non-A hits, the competitors will zero the stage, or else the internet police won't let you call it a bill-drill.

Nope, you get your points. But, also the shame of shooting a Rootie Tootie instead of a Bill Drill.

Stage should be named, "Bill Drill or Rootie Tootie, Shooters Choice".

Got a current classifier or two that need to have their names changed too, in order to meet with police approval, cuz they count the c's and d's.

Same thing, you get the points AND the shame for going Rootie Tootie.

Edited to add:

Actually, I should have looked first, ..........

There is no classifier entitled "Bill Drill". There is something close to the name, but far more complicated than an actual Bill Drill.

4 bill drill, should be changed to 4 rootie tootie drill.