big_kahuna Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 What's the benefit of recognizing categories? Some ideas based on what I've seen over the few years I've been involved: Juniors - provides incentive for young people to get involved... they are the future of our sport/nation/society, and benefit greatly from interaction with "right thinking folks" (my opinion based on the positive impact of USPSA involvement on my own children) Lady - provides incentive for increased female involvement (competitive shooting is considered more "mainstream" with increased female involvement, with too many downstream societal benefits to mention) Senior and Super Senior - encourages the ongoing involvement of those with the most life experience and wisdom, and hopefully the passing of that knowledge to the next generations Military and LE - encourages improving weapons-system operation skills for those in the profession of arms; also increases positive relational exposure of LE/MIL to civilians who might not otherwise interact with armed professionals So, the benefit of recognizing categories is basically increased market penetration (more participants from outside the "males between 18-49" demographic pool) and desired/related societal effects (more 2nd amendment advocates a hundred years from now, the reinforcement of traditional core values consistent among most shooters, increased awareness of the sacrifices of those in professions of arms, etc.). The drawback of category recognition is that it dilutes the purist ideal of MERITOCRACY (where the winners are those who perform the best regardless of gender, age, etc.). As a capitalist I cannot deny the simple truth that meritocracy works unless tampered with. Assuming that we want to sacrifice meritocracy for desired societal benefit, might the inclusion of EMS/Fire as a category addition offer any positive long-term societal impact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUKE Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Leo's get free coffee and donut's ! Leave it like it is ! {Thought provokeing to say the least.} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt G Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 As a former Marine I will agree that Firefighters and EMS would have a long way to go to match the sacrifices of our military. But I did a little research BOJ studies show 800,000 career law enforcement officers and on average 164 of them die each year in the line of duty. National Fire Academy shows 323,000 career firefighters and on average 103 of them die each year in the line of duty So while I agree that our military sacrifices a great deal to protect us: This is to joe4d and outerlimits Don't you dare say that a cop's sacrifice or line of duty death is any more important a sacrifice than that made by a firefighter. I am a career firefighter and like smokeshwn a SWAT medic for our tactical team, a credentialed LEO. I asked this question to raise a bit on why some group the two together and why USPSA chooses not to. I did not want this to turn into a debate of who is better, more important, etc. We all love this sport and want to see it continue and grow, I understand the reasons for categories and how they help our sport. Would anything be gained or lost by including firefighters in the category, probably not. Keep the military category, remove law enforcement from the category then there is no debate about all of the other professions being categorized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I vote to leave the categories as they are. No changes. I do have the utmost repsect for military, LE, firefighters, and other emergency personnel and I thank God for all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock_40_caliber Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Keep the military category, remove law enforcement from the category then there is no debate about all of the other professions being categorized. That would definately drop the numbers in that category, as the requirements for being considered military by the USPSA is you have to be on current active duty orders. With the exception of the AMU, the one member Navy team, and a couple that run around in Air Force shirts, you probably wouldn't have enough participation in the category to keep it going. As for the societal effects of having a category for LE/Mil, there is a better chance of getting LEO's out to the range more often, if they don't have to shoot against "average citizens." Especially when the majority of those average folks at the matchs most likely can shoot better than they can. Any time you can get those that are issued weapons to the range more, and get them trigger time, the better everyone is, as there is a better chance of them being able to hit what they are trying to, and less of a chance of a stray round. Like others have said, its nothing against the medics/firefighters, but we do have too many categories as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt G Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 The general consensus from a lot of the posts is that we have too many categories. Ok then which ones should we get rid of? I say keep the lady and junior category, get rid of the rest. We continue to grow the under represented parts of our sport and those in the categories that are gotten rid of can shoot with the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 My vote is still the same. Make no changes at this time to any of the categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I'd leave it the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 As a former Marine I will agree that Firefighters and EMS would have a long way to go to match the sacrifices of our military.But I did a little research BOJ studies show 800,000 career law enforcement officers and on average 164 of them die each year in the line of duty. National Fire Academy shows 323,000 career firefighters and on average 103 of them die each year in the line of duty So while I agree that our military sacrifices a great deal to protect us: This is to joe4d and outerlimits Don't you dare say that a cop's sacrifice or line of duty death is any more important a sacrifice than that made by a firefighter. I am a career firefighter and like smokeshwn a SWAT medic for our tactical team, a credentialed LEO. I asked this question to raise a bit on why some group the two together and why USPSA chooses not to. I did not want this to turn into a debate of who is better, more important, etc. We all love this sport and want to see it continue and grow, I understand the reasons for categories and how they help our sport. Would anything be gained or lost by including firefighters in the category, probably not. Keep the military category, remove law enforcement from the category then there is no debate about all of the other professions being categorized. mattg-i think you misunderstood my post. all i meant was i believe no leo sacrifice can compare to that of or military. like you, i'm a marine (no such thing as former, even though that was 35 years ago when we played in foliage, not sand). i agree we should rid ourselves of the leo category, otherwise, all professions would be open game-and it doesn't end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Do away with Mil/Leo categories, there are way too many backdoor offneders to the issues anyway. I can remember a reserve guy that was a gynecologist full time that would win the LE division, it was embarrassing to see full time officers not get recognized because this guy decided he wanted some recognition. besides FF's get to ride around with water cannons and deck guns, how do you holster that crap, much less unload and show clear. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Matt, while you've certainly stirred the pot, I don't see any merit to changing things. You seem to be the only one with an interest in adding firefirghters. Let's hear some reasons why other than because GSSF does it. As far as categories go, I think they are fine as is. Junior, Lady, Senior and Super Senior recognize those folks we have shooting who, likely, wouldn't win an overall match. There are certainly exceptions at the club level but I doubt you'll see any of these categories recognized at the top. LE and Military (not the same) categories are there to draw new competitors from those who carry for a living. Which surprisingly doesn't seem to be a priority for many of them. The last two years we've seen National Champions in both categories, Bob Vogel, Ted Puente, Travis Tomasie and Max Michel. If any were to be cut, these would be my pick. But I don't see any reason to cut them. I'm not a fan of change just to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 You could change the LEO category to First Responders. That would encapsulate law enforcement, firefighters, emergency medical technicians, and the like. This would actually make a bigger more competitive category. This is just a thought based off of the comments that have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well I dont think the issue in our sport has anything to do with respect or recognition of a job, The category exists in our sport simply becasue Military or LEO nay be r3equired or choose to use their issue gear, this includes with all retention devices. This gear puts these people at a disadvantage. So the special category. Recognizing a Military or Leo winner simply becasue of there job is wrong, the recognition is for the less competitive gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well I dont think the issue in our sport has anything to do with respect or recognition of a job, The category exists in our sport simply becasue Military or LEO nay be r3equired or choose to use their issue gear, this includes with all retention devices. This gear puts these people at a disadvantage. So the special category. Recognizing a Military or Leo winner simply becasue of there job is wrong, the recognition is for the less competitive gear. They ARE NOT limited to duty gear in USPSA. All you need is the requisite number of participants that meet the definition of military or LEO. You could have a LEO or Military category winner in every division that USPSA has, as long as there are 5 or more in the division category. Duty equipment has nothing to do with it. In IDPA there is a requirement for use of duty gear, from what I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well I dont think the issue in our sport has anything to do with respect or recognition of a job, The category exists in our sport simply becasue Military or LEO nay be r3equired or choose to use their issue gear, this includes with all retention devices. This gear puts these people at a disadvantage. So the special category. Recognizing a Military or Leo winner simply becasue of there job is wrong, the recognition is for the less competitive gear. They ARE NOT limited to duty gear in USPSA. All you need is the requisite number of participants that meet the definition of military or LEO. You could have a LEO or Military category winner in every division that USPSA has, as long as there are 5 or more in the division category. Duty equipment has nothing to do with it. In IDPA there is a requirement for use of duty gear, from what I remember. I think was trying to explain why there was originally recognition of the Mil/LE category. We can all understand how the Junior, Lady, Senior, and Super Senior work to provide recognition. Initially the same was done for those who put themselves at a disadvantage and competed in their duty gear. The mistake many in this thread are making is thinking the Mil/LE category has something to do with the sacrifice/dedication/public service aspect of the profession. As has been stated several times, there are plenty of professions that meet that criteria. Too many to get into a recognition contest or a debate on which are worthy and which aren't (pretty stupid debate really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I think they are entitled to the same recognition as military and law enforcement. Is what a firefighter does any less worthy than what they do? Just thinking add them to the same class. Yes very much so, a Fire fighter,/ civilian EMT's duty in no way compares to what soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen have done for this country. Not even in the same ballpark. +1...leo's either. What the heck, let's cut it down even more . . . how about only including those in combat arms positions or who have been awarded a CIB, CMB, or CAB? No need to include the fobbits sorting mail, processing paperwork, etc who never leave the wire! <stir, stir...> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I lost braincells reading though this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt G Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well the pot has certainly been stirred hasn't it. outerlimits thank you for the clarification, my apologies fellow teufelhunden As in any sport the original intent of of a rule or intention, evolves into something completely different, as has this thread. There aren't too many that wish to see this changed, and that was my intent to find out if there were any that did, so lets just leave the categories alone for now. Although if the details can be worked out I will support a Kilt division, but there will have to be many many rules. Think we can get Jessie Abbate to compete in Kilt Div her legs are way better than any of ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Think we can get Jessie Abbate to compete in Kilt Div her legs are way better than any of ours. Well, I guess Cliff's moment in the spotlight is over... Later, Chuck PS: Enough categories, but I do feet that gynecologists are under recognized... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Tunnel vision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 pot stirred????? worthless debate????? I didn't start this topic!!!! when it gets to 6+ pages then its properly stirred. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 PS: Enough categories, but I do feet that gynecologists are under recognized... I agree wholeheartedly with Chuck on this. It's hard to imagine anything more important than protecting our nation's precious gynocological resources, and these guys put themselves on the front line every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 (edited) ....BOJ studies show .....Don't you dare say that a cop's sacrifice or line of duty death is any more important a sacrifice than that made by a firefighter...... I'm not sure why the Bank of Japan is doing line-of-duty-fatality studies, but... By your reasoning, fishermen, construction workers, loggers, garbage collectors, roofers, taxi drivers, pilots, electrical linesmen have all given more for this country than military or LE (since their on-duty death rate far exceeds military, LEO, firefighters). I'm stretching the point. The only reason for a LE/mil category is to let those people train/compete with the equipment they are forced to use on duty. Not a lot of firefighters/EMTs/loggers/fishermen have a need for these skills. It's not about value-of-public-service, it's about people-who-use-weapons-that-are-kinda-like-the-ones-used-in-our-sport. Taxi drivers on the other hand.... THEY should get special category rcognition, and cross-draw holsters will be allowed for this category! Edited October 3, 2009 by Anon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I like the idea of a lefty category; so we can see whos the best of the damned. or maybe "special needs" catagory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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