Poll- What do you believe should be the Max rifle range used at a 3-Gu

[mike.45]

and the Mexican food gas pains from the night before......

Merlin, you forgot hangover.....

[dmshozer1]

I would tend to agree with the above posters,................................so long as you look at it from an extreme viewpoint and can keep your opinion the same, would you approve of targets at 1000 or 1200yds using the same equipment you currently have????????????? To see if a opinion is correct or valid it should stand the extremes, be they really close or really far. If you would feel the same about 500 or 600 yard targets, as you would about 1000 or 1200yd target using the same equipment, then go ahead and do it, but remember that as has been stated elsewhere, if you feel that way then let there be no extra penalty for the shooter deciding on his own to not shoot a target and take a miss for the target, if you have more shooters opting for the miss than you do for taking the shot then you have designed a stage that is TOO hard, for the common equipment and skill set.

Too many MD's design targets to be shot at but then do not allow parity in the shot, and try to FORCE competitors to shoot at them and then get pissed off when its to the shooters advantage to NOT hit it. If you want a shooter to hit the target or at least make an honest attempt then make the shot doable for ALL!!!!!

I truthfully believe that if MD's would try the shots they set up with a red dot or irons then all this "bitching" (as some would call it) would end. If they can't make the shot after 3 attempts in 20 seconds then they need to rethink the target.

Trapr,

Great post! Hit the nail on the head!

Nuff said!

[dmshozer1]

To hell with all that. 300+. It's a rifle. If I wanted to shoot a pistol match with a rifle, well...I'd just shoot a pistol match. 300 yards is nothing with an AR, especially since we had guys hitting man sized targets at 800 with their factory AR's in about a steady 6 with gusts to 12 mph wind. Them little 75 & 77gr. pills were getting thrown but if a shooter that has never shot longer 100 yards can do it in a span of an hour, a little bit of time on the range can get you squared away from 300-500.

As for similar/consistent conditions, suck it up and shoot. Unless we start shooting in a box, it'll never be identical and frankly, the conditions are the conditions for every one. I'm pretty sure the sheet of ice that was on the roof at FTB3G last year sucked for the guys in the morning. I know it did for the guys on the bridge. The answer? Oh well...it's not USPSA or IDPA.

Just shoot the stage as it is and do a little bit of homework starting with zero'ing the rifle. Little bit of time getting some FREE data from JBM ballistics and then doing a little homework on the range to check POI's out to 300-500. And before the statement comes of a lot of ranges only go to 100, you can easily check POI on a 100 yard range with a ruler and your data. Heck...at most matches a hard 50 yard zero will take care of EVERY long range shot you'll need.

WHAT A MAN! when I grow up, I went to be just like you! But, being a mere mortal, that probably will not happen!

Oh well.

[dmshozer1]

I wanted to vote for 600 plus but as a practical matter I think that 400 yards is about as far out as we should go for most 3 gun.

First, most facilities are not capable of 500-600 yard shooting so many shooters will be ill-equipped to compete against those who have such a facility.

Second, stages with really long shots take forever to complete and really can slow a match down. Maybe 10-20% of the shooters are really going to be prepared and equipped to deal with these kind of shots. The rest will wail away with dozens if not hundreds of rounds.

Third, IMHO 400 yards is about the realistic effective PRACTICAL range of the .223 carbine (Highpower notwithstanding). And this sport is (and should be) based around the performance envelope of the .223 carbine.

Fourth, it is not really going to change the rankings. The same people will be winning and probably by a greater margin.

Fifth, I see enough shooters struggling with 200 - 300 yard shots. Let's have the mass of 3 gunners master that before we move on. Plus it is disheartening to see people struggle as they do now. I can hardly imagine scene when we start having regular 600 yard shots. TonyH is right (as he usually is), we could scare away a lot of potential recruits.

Sixth, I agree that (as with Larue this year) it will really add an element of inconsistency in the match. If, on a long long range course, I have to shoot in 25 mph winds one day and Robbie Johnson gets no wind the next day (or vice versa!), the weather is going to have a huge impact on scores. Highpower gets around this by squadding most of the potential winners on the same relay but that is not something we can do in 3 gun.

Great post! Common sense should hopefully make M.D.'s listen.

[Brian Payne]

I look at it this way. If I am going to a match that I know has a shotgun only course of fire that calls for 48 rounds. I am going to figure out a way to carry that amount of ammo and more, and practice my reloading skills, and do all of this in advance of the match date.

If I know there will be rifle shots in excess of 300 yrds. I will do my best to practice beyond this distance in advance of the match date. I will then hope that the MD has set the COF up so that I can at least see the targets.

At one of the first long range COF's I shot, the RO (knowing I was a newer shooter) took the time to explain about timing out, and that sometimes it is better to give the target a couple of your best shots, if you can't hit it, move on. A short lesson in "knowing your limitations" basically.

I voted on the pole, but I would have liked to have had another option of "all the above".

Let me know general max. rifle range in advance, then give me a target that I can see, let me work out the details for myself. If I can't hit the target, I don't feel I can blame the MD for bad stage design.

[Chills1994]

The other nice thing about knowing what kind of ranges and/or CoF designs are going to be at this future match you are going to shot at is that you can then decide which division to sign up for based on your equipment and/or skill.

It also allows you plenty of time to get that high zoot optic, and to get warmed up on it by sending some rounds downrange with it on your rifle.

[jeremyp270]

I vote for 450 and less.

A really long time ago I shot from the berm on the KD range at Wainright at 500m with irons (our company was doing this) and hits with irons on A2s were very doable. If I can actually see something that far out I feel confident that I can hit it with irons (even).

The Marines use irons out to 600.

I disagree with the idea that action shooting sports should model themselves after the "what our guys carry theory" idea of lets only use 14-16in barrels and red dots or irons because that's what guys in the field carry.

Someone actually sent this idea into front sight? We should all shoot red dots because thats what Army guys use?

I think the military is better equipped today specificly because of the advances of action shooting and the commercial shooting market (red dots on every rifle now being normal in the field is a direct result of action shooting technology)

If you go to the new USASOC and airborne museum in Fayetteville you will also see photos and actual fielded weapons on display with big honkin Miculek and Gunstar looking muzzlebreaks on them. This suprised me when I saw them during my visit. A couple of these were on 10inch guns if I remember. Maybe the USASOC guys figured out comps on their own?

My guess is most places in the east probably never shoot past 300 other than Benning (beats me, I shoot a couple local matches and then Benning annually)

Maybe in the west you could go further than 400 routinely. I switched from a 16 in barrel to a 20 specifically for the increased velocity and easier accuracy at distances. I have a short barreled poodle shooter in the safe if I feel like using one of those too.

I know the guy who sent that in to Front Sight, true to his beliefs he shot this years FB3G with a 14.5" AR topped with a C-More (yes a C-More) and he finished in 7th place on stage 1, I was pretty impressed with that for what its worth.

As for the poll, I'd have to say 300 and in, mainly for reasons of keeping the match on schedule. Maybe have the farther shots as bonus targets with no penalties for misses. I enjoy shooting out to 500 yards with my regular match rifle and my trusty Meopta but I would venture to say that most shooters dont have that luxury.

Hats off to you iron sight guys, I shoot my 03A3 4 or 5 times a year and Its easy to see how conditions drastically affect your sight picture.

[twodownzero]

I even think 300 is pushing it. 200 is a good max, but 300 is perfectly do-able even with an iron sighted carbine, so 300 is a good compromise if you ask me.

I do not use match bullets nor do I change my sight settings in a multi-gun match and I do not want to start. The drop at 300 yards is about 12", which I'd probably handle with a hold over. Anything more than that and the bullet drops like a rock. Unless the targets are large and/or the person shooting knows their precise drop for that distance, you're just wasting ammo and expecting shooters to take mikes for no reason.

If you ask me, multi-gun is the place in this sport that has little direction and needs to be fixed. The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America and people want to shoot it. With that said, your average guy who shoots a USPSA match once a month doesn't practice at 600 yards with his AR. I know I don't. I have a bolt gun, match ammo, and an extensive dope chart for that. My .308 bullet drops 5 FEET in that distance. Are you prepared to make those adjustments, at speed, in a multi-gun match?

Not only am I not, but that's not what I'm there for. USPSA is a drag race, not a 500 mile circle track race.

[AlamoShooter]

I am stepping in mud...But (Option A= 50 meters fast and fun.? )

Some of the Airsoft Guns will shoot 50 meters just fine. So Thats an option for the fast and fun vote ammo is cheep you don't have to "Wast time" practicing and you don't have to know anything about bullet drop or reloading or Oh No ..... Wind Oh no

I did good I kept that to my self for days

Whats that smell? did I just step in Dog Do?

OK I have to edit this add. I am just presenting a point of view from the far Right- or Left I don't know

I am not trying to be cruel just Honest about what pops in my head.

I hope anyone does not take this personal Its more like I am questioning someones statement that Maxwell house is the best Coffey in the world.

It is Dog Do that is stuck to my shoe now isn't it?

Edited December 22, 2009 by AlamoShooter

[M ammo]

I am stepping in mud...But (Option A= 50 meters fast and fun.? )

Some of the Airsoft Guns will shoot 50 meters just fine. So Thats an option for the fast and fun vote ammo is cheep you don't have to "Wast time" practicing and you don't have to know anything about bullet drop or reloading or Oh No ..... Wind Oh no

I did good I kept that to my self for days

Whats that smell? did I just step in Dog Do?

OK I have to edit this add. I am just presenting a point of view from the far Right- or Left I don't know

I am not trying to be cruel just Honest about what pops in my head.

I hope anyone does not take this personal Its more like I am questioning someones statement that Maxwell house is the best Coffey in the world.

It is Dog Do that is stuck to my shoe now isn't it?

You are too funny,,,,,

truth,,, but truth is funny,,, if you can shoot the stage with a pistol,,,, its a pistol stage,

I still go for 300,,, over that should be bonus tgts,,, 300+ gets into another game..

Jim M ammo

[Sudden Death]

My vote is for 300, I shoot limited in 3G and I can do 300 easy

[AlamoShooter]

Did You Guys Read the Ballot??!?!

your making a vote for MAX! rifle distance not ... Normal rifle distance.

Sure 300 is fine as a max for most of the shots , But to draw a line in the Sand and say ..."NO Targets Past this Line".

I can see the match that has to...Throw out a stage .....Aribitration and a new GPS location put target #2 and target #3 at Oh No! 302 yards and target #6 was at 308 yards clearly that is why the stage must be thrown out.

Or the match that has a new winner two days after the match declared because winner #2 cry-ed and wanted the target remeasured.

_{I was told that their was no crying in 3 gun}

[jobob]

I even think 300 is pushing it. 200 is a good max, but 300 is perfectly do-able even with an iron sighted carbine, so 300 is a good compromise if you ask me.

I do not use match bullets nor do I change my sight settings in a multi-gun match and I do not want to start. The drop at 300 yards is about 12", which I'd probably handle with a hold over. Anything more than that and the bullet drops like a rock. Unless the targets are large and/or the person shooting knows their precise drop for that distance, you're just wasting ammo and expecting shooters to take mikes for no reason.

If you ask me, multi-gun is the place in this sport that has little direction and needs to be fixed. The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America and people want to shoot it. With that said, your average guy who shoots a USPSA match once a month doesn't practice at 600 yards with his AR. I know I don't. I have a bolt gun, match ammo, and an extensive dope chart for that. My .308 bullet drops 5 FEET in that distance. Are you prepared to make those adjustments, at speed, in a multi-gun match?

Not only am I not, but that's not what I'm there for. USPSA is a drag race, not a 500 mile circle track race.

12" drop at 300? Sure you aren't shooting an AK? The way I sight my AR it's about 1-3" low at 300 w/55gr. fmj. At 400 it's fairly easy to hit an 18x24" plate (which is about the size I've seen in matches at that range) by holding at or slightly above the top edge. 600 IS a stretch for most limited/tactical shooters and rifles. But I see nothing wrong with an ocassional bonus target out to 600.

The MGM Ironman has a target at 700-ish yards, which you can shoot with a separate rifle if you wish (I wish). But the targets to be shot with your "regular" rifle go out to 400+. There aren't many targets over 300, but there are a couple. It's fun! It's a challenge! If your once a month shooter doesn't want a challenge, and doesn't want to practice, he should stay away from the big matches.

[ShooterSteve]

You know, it's not the 300-400yd shots that get me. It's all the crazy running around on the stage before that. Then your hearts pumpin, and you can't breath, and for the life of me I can't get the little targets to stay still, dang it...Oh, by the way, that's what makes this fun. If I wanted it to be easy, I'd just stay home with the remote and watch football.

[JeffWard]

We've got 25 yard bays to work with... Inside city limits.

We shot at USPSA metric targets on Sunday... 6" tall USPSA metrics. I'm guessing 1/5 scale... The A-Zone was about 2 inches tall? They were shot off the top of a car. 25 yards X 5 is only 125 yards... Is my conversion math off?

You don't need a 400+ yard range to challenge shooting skills, but it would be nice. I voted 300 and in for 3-gun. You shouldn't need a $2000 AR with a hand-lapped barrel and a $700 scope to be competitive in our game.

300 will definitely separate the men from the boys by time.

Jeff

[M ammo]

You know, it's not the 300-400yd shots that get me. It's all the crazy running around on the stage before that. Then your hearts pumpin, and you can't breath, and for the life of me I can't get the little targets to stay still, dang it...Oh, by the way, that's what makes this fun. If I wanted it to be easy, I'd just stay home with the remote and watch football.

Oh ya, you have to love that stages,, that they put you on a SPRING loaded platform!!!! like I need that? NOT!

I know there are people that would say,,, WELL WHAT IF??? the zombies were out their??? And and and,,,, hmmmm,,,

Ok so for you Zombie hunters,,,

I say,,, I would move to a better shooting location,, if they are 400 yards out,,, they don't see me yet anyway,, so I would find the best position for me,, something to brace up on,,,, then take my shots,,, get my hits,,, and move out smartly..

I was in the Army for 20 years, I don't need to simulate pain and stupid,, I lived it.

And when I set up in a position, while in the Army,,,, sometimes for hours or days, I didn't set up some jungle gym, contortionist thing,, I made it comfortable, stable and concealed.

As for running and Gunning, you bet I'm out of breath,, so I'm going to shoot from my most stable position I can find,,, be it prone, over a Car, by a tree. But probably not off of a back yard trampoline, swing set, or hanging off a rope STABO Harness Rigg, being extracted from the Zombie attack. Via Helo..

Challenging does not have to = Stupid

This yeas 2009 LaRue and the RM3G,,, were good examples of good,, rifle stages, Challenging and Doable

Jim M ammo

[RufDog]

I shoot what they put out as best I can. 300 is pretty easy considering its a 10" target or bigger. Impossible shots aren't appreciated by anyone but just because you cant shoot 400 well (due to whatever reason) doesnt mean it shouldn't be done. There was a poll a while back that was something like this -"do you like weak hand only shooting?" I answered no, but obivously I will since I shoot pistol matches. I had a bunch of people call me every name in the book as if I had made a motion to ban W.H.O. shots. I dont ENJOY a lot of things but small doses of those things doesnt make me hate a match. Various scenarios simply give me the opportunity to evaluate my skills or lack of. There have been a lot of great points mentioned in this thread that I hope to carry over to our match. We want it to be fun & challenging. If its possible, I'd say we are likely to have a challenging long shot or 2. I thought stage 1 of FB3G was pretty good but would like to have seen 1 target back @ 400 and maybe a bank of hosers. It was mentioned that wind varied for other shooters & you cannot get around that. Typically, if a competitor can shoot well enough to hit a given target they can shoot well enough to compensate for wind @ that range. I absolutely love fast hoser shooting & a plate rack @ 1 or 200 is a blast. The 1-2 (vs. 3-4) stuff is, IMHO, less challenging largely due to having such a wide margin of error and wind is rarely strong enough to be a factor. I think the stupid factor must be carefully managed, nobody wants to run 1/4 mile then shoot a 1MOA target @ a grand or some other such Tom Foolery! I suppose I lean towards the Gentleman Jim post of not dumbing stuff down yet not get too ridiculous.

[duncan]

I voted 300. But the truth is, if I sign up for a match that I know is 4-600 then it's my problem. I have to drive almost 2 hours just to get to a club that has a 300 yd range. I personally wont do that. I have enough problems finding time to practice with my handgun.

So thats out for me. WInd drift etc. is something you need to practice at. I (and a few others I know ) dont have the time to do it.

The other problem is the time it takes to shoot a stage. To me, if you can literally time out. Thats just way too much. The few 3 gun matches I have been to, You sit and wait, and wait , and wait. And that was just 200 mtr matches. If 300 is too close , make the 300 mtr targets smaller.

[Jim Norman]

I voted for 300 because there was not a <450.

600 is pushing to a point where some of us just plain can't see the targets. Many of us in order to shoot iron pistol wear eyeglasses that allow us to see the front sight clearly and the targets at 25 yards not so clearly. A 12" plate at 200 yards is nearly invisible and at 400 is just gone so we shoot a scope. Even at that 600 yards becomes more that a little challenge. Most of us, but not all can find 100, 200 and usually 300 yards if we are willing to drive a reasonable distance. over that it can get very time consuming. Now, if you have figured your zero well and can do some simple math, you can probably get to the 400 yard target even if you've only shot at 100. 600 on the other hand is a stretch.

Jim

[jobob]

We've got 25 yard bays to work with... Inside city limits.

We shot at USPSA metric targets on Sunday... 6" tall USPSA metrics. I'm guessing 1/5 scale... The A-Zone was about 2 inches tall? They were shot off the top of a car. 25 yards X 5 is only 125 yards... Is my conversion math off?

You don't need a 400+ yard range to challenge shooting skills, but it would be nice. I voted 300 and in for 3-gun. You shouldn't need a $2000 AR with a hand-lapped barrel and a $700 scope to be competitive in our game.

300 will definitely separate the men from the boys by time.

Jeff

I'm not sure where you get the idea that you need a $2K custom AR, match barrel, and high end scope (well, $700 really isn't a high end scope. Sorta upper middle for a really good 1-4x 3-gun worthy scope like a Trijicon Accupoint or Meopta) to make long range hits. My long range rifle for MGM Ironman the last 3 years has been a 20" Bushmaster with a Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x (around $250 on sale). It shoots into 1" at 100 yards w/69 smk Black Hills ammo. It has had no problem hitting the 700 yard plate when I do my part, and if there isn't too much wind. I do think, though, that 600 is stretching things for a 3 gun rifle w/a low power scope. But 400 is very doable with ordinary equipment, and the occasional 450-500 bonus target is a decent challenge.

[Big Bore]

We've got 25 yard bays to work with... Inside city limits.

We shot at USPSA metric targets on Sunday... 6" tall USPSA metrics. I'm guessing 1/5 scale... The A-Zone was about 2 inches tall? They were shot off the top of a car. 25 yards X 5 is only 125 yards... Is my conversion math off?

You don't need a 400+ yard range to challenge shooting skills, but it would be nice. I voted 300 and in for 3-gun. You shouldn't need a $2000 AR with a hand-lapped barrel and a $700 scope to be competitive in our game.

300 will definitely separate the men from the boys by time.

Jeff

I don't have a 2000 dollar AR and don't need one. Mine has a stainless Rockriver barrel with JP gasblock, stainless low mass bolt carrier and buffer, and a JP trigger. It easily shoots at 1 moa.

I have no issues hitting targets out to 600 as long as I can see the target and it is sized properly. The main issue I have is making sure it is visible since I shoot irons.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Big Bore

[AlamoShooter]

my gun used to be a Rock River with a comp that Benny put on for me. & a Meopta scope. And Benny put a JP trigger in the gun too. It cost a little more than a good set of Golf Clubs

I was checking the loads at 500 yards, ... Linda was willing to give it a try. I think she shot an AR once before.

She shot at an MGM IPSC target first shot went just to the left. I told her how much wind to hold & the next three hit the target, I said try the popper to the side = hold right edge ...One shot -tick tick- the target falls She put a few more on the IPSC target and missed once or twice out of four shots shooting faster . she says "Yep thats fun can we go now"?

She did rest the gun with bags on the table. and she was kidding about the "Can we go now"

I don't Like target that are hard to see ether. But If an Iron shooter can see the target , it seams like its a fair target at any distance.

Edited December 24, 2009 by AlamoShooter

[bigbrowndog]

See the target, seems to be the number one caveat!!!!!!

Number 2 is a decent size,

Gee I wonder where those ideas came from

Merry Christmas, and I hope everyone gets what they want, I know I did!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

[smokshwn]

You shouldn't need a $2000 AR with a hand-lapped barrel and a $700 scope to be competitive in our game.

Jeff

These two things have damn near nothing to do with being competitive in this game and certainly have nothing to with getting hits at distance.

My first 3 gun rifle and now backup rifle was a unknown maker stainless barrel on a dpms lopro receiver, milspec BCG, and a generic free float tube. The lower was mil spec with the exception of a JP trigger. Optics were a $250 mueller scope. All told that rifle cost me less than half of your $2700 figure. My performance was not hindered in the least by the lack of $$ spent on the gear.

[jobob]

Merry Christmas to all!