Poll- What do you believe should be the Max rifle range used at a 3-Gu

[twodownzero]

12" drop at 300? Sure you aren't shooting an AK? T

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.0.cgi

Here's a simple ballistics calculator, where you can see for yourself. A 55 grain FMJBT that leaves the muzzle at 3200 FPS will drop 11.7" from a 100 yard zero given he other specs in the simplified calculator. I did pull the 12" number out of thin air, but it was damn close.

[jobob]

So, I'm not sure I understand your point. A 100 yard zero is no way to sight in a rifle to use at long range, unless you're chasing your targets with the elevation knob. Using the same ballistics program, sighted at 100 yards, a .308 190gr. (0.5 bc) going 3200 fps is around 9" low at 300. So, that little 55 gr. 223 bullet is within 3" of a 300 mag at 300 yards. I'd call that pretty flat shooting. In fact, if you fired 1 MOA groups at 300 from the two calibers, the 2 groups would be touching!

Sight that 223 4" high at 100 yards, and you're pretty much dead on at 300. The ammo I use isn't that fast, though, so I'm on at around 275 and a couple low at 300.

Edited December 27, 2009 by jobob

[twodownzero]

I wouldn't know, as I dial my sights for elevation. I can't say I've ever heard someone outside of hunting talk about using "Kentucky elevation" like that, though.

[jobob]

I've seen few people in 3gun matches dialing their elevation knobs during a stage. It seems to add a lot of time when they do. What we need to do is sight in for the longest point blank range that will not cause mid-range misses, and know your hold-overs for longer range. Many shooters seem to go for zero at 200, or about 2" high at 100. That's fine for most targets out to about 250. Much beyond that and your into guessing, or knowing, your holdovers. This last year I've been working with the method I mentioned - 4" high at 100. Works great on a plate rack at 100, or even 200+. A 6o'clock hold (bottom edge of plate) gets a center hit on 8" plates. And the distance I can go before I'm into guessing at holdover is stretched to the limit, or about 325. Beyond that it's good to have a scope reticle with some kind of holdover system. I've been using an Accupoint TR21 with triangle. Holdover is problematic with that reticle, so sighting for the longest possible point blank range without needing to aim high takes a lot of guesswork out of the game.

[FB3GDQ]

I have been told that our large matches are National level events and so, they should be made more difficultevery year!!

I cannot disagree more, the challenge should be the skill level. It is in almost every other sport, Football does not make the field larger or goal posts closer together or the first down further every year, baseball does not place the bases further or the pitcher closer, Car racing does not change each racetrack and add a few more turns, they all simply remain the same and let the level of skill for each competitor raise the challenge.

for every one sport you can name that changes its National level event every year, I can name 5 that do not. I'm not saying the stages need to be exactly the same every year but they do not need to be made harder, we need to remember that even at National level events, every level of competitor is there.

The skill level should be what raises the challenge not the target.

trapr

Damn Trapr....WELL SAID! I totally agree.

[/left]

I think that the matches could represent the region the match is being held in. There are lots of matches to go to, and if there s a match in the desert or plains area and a shooter doesn't like shooting longer distance then that might not be the match for them. I think the harder part of having longer range shots is having ro's that can call correct hit.

[FB3GDQ]

So, I'm not sure I understand your point. A 100 yard zero is no way to sight in a rifle to use at long range, unless you're chasing your targets with the elevation knob. Using the same ballistics program, sighted at 100 yards, a .308 190gr. (0.5 bc) going 3200 fps is around 9" low at 300. So, that little 55 gr. 223 bullet is within 3" of a 300 mag at 300 yards. I'd call that pretty flat shooting. In fact, if you fired 1 MOA groups at 300 from the two calibers, the 2 groups would be touching!

Sight that 223 4" high at 100 yards, and you're pretty much dead on at 300. The ammo I use isn't that fast, though, so I'm on at around 275 and a couple low at 300.

Using a 100m zero can be used with out using you elevation knob. Using 55gr and and an 18" barrel my muzz vel is about 2900 fps. With a 100m zero as long as I know my holds I can us it out to long ranges with out using elevation knob. My mill holds are in general 200m is a .41 mil 250m is a .75 mil hold 300m is a 1.13 mil hold over, and so on.

I have a mill dot recital in my scope so it is easy for me to use hold overs with out dialing, and I have pushed my regular .223, 55gr out to 700m on 12" plate. With first round hits. Now with out a mill dot recital and a 100m zero to hit a 6" plat at 200m hold at the top of the plate and you should hit the plate in the nose to slightly hight in the nose area.

Now another thing to consider on long range shots is if you are shooting first or second focal plain scopes. With a first focal plain scope your zero does not shift but your recital changes in size when you change the magnification on the scope. A second focal plain scope the recital stay the same with but the zero shifts when the scope magnification is changed. With a second focal plain scope you will notice the zero shift at greater distances.

I hope this does not confuses anybody about long range shooting.

[RufDog]

So, I'm not sure I understand your point. A 100 yard zero is no way to sight in a rifle to use at long range, unless you're chasing your targets with the elevation knob. Using the same ballistics program, sighted at 100 yards, a .308 190gr. (0.5 bc) going 3200 fps is around 9" low at 300. So, that little 55 gr. 223 bullet is within 3" of a 300 mag at 300 yards. I'd call that pretty flat shooting. In fact, if you fired 1 MOA groups at 300 from the two calibers, the 2 groups would be touching!

Sight that 223 4" high at 100 yards, and you're pretty much dead on at 300. The ammo I use isn't that fast, though, so I'm on at around 275 and a couple low at 300.

Using a 100m zero can be used with out using you elevation knob. Using 55gr and and an 18" barrel my muzz vel is about 2900 fps. With a 100m zero as long as I know my holds I can us it out to long ranges with out using elevation knob. My mill holds are in general 200m is a .41 mil 250m is a .75 mil hold 300m is a 1.13 mil hold over, and so on.

I have a mill dot recital in my scope so it is easy for me to use hold overs with out dialing, and I have pushed my regular .223, 55gr out to 700m on 12" plate. With first round hits. Now with out a mill dot recital and a 100m zero to hit a 6" plat at 200m hold at the top of the plate and you should hit the plate in the nose to slightly hight in the nose area.

Now another thing to consider on long range shots is if you are shooting first or second focal plain scopes. With a first focal plain scope your zero does not shift but your recital changes in size when you change the magnification on the scope. A second focal plain scope the recital stay the same with but the zero shifts when the scope magnification is changed. With a second focal plain scope you will notice the zero shift at greater distances.

I hope this does not confuses anybody about long range shooting.

FB3GDQ- AWESOME name bro!

[George]

I think shots should not be much beyond 300 meters but also feel that there should be a goodly number of targets at or beyond 200. I also agree with Trapr that 3.5 MOA is what you should be looking at rather than any specific actual distance. If you can't make a 3.5 MOA shot at 300+ meters you ain't gonna make it at 150-200 either

[hopalong]

I answered 600.

Just so IF I had 600 to work with I MIGHT use it.

We had 300+ a little to use at the Mississippi 3-gun Challenge this year and the farthest we went was 180 ish and that wasn't even on the "Rifle ONLY" stage.

It was 165 with different and challenging but not hard positions.

The key is you get out of the sport what sport what you put into it. IF wanted to be the best 3-gunner in the world I would do what ever to get that way (Practice might be a good start). IF I want to go have fun 3-gunning (I fit this catagory) I'll do enough so I don't make myself mad.

MY take on any match........................3-gun, rifle, pistol, shotgun.

Design the match to where the middle of the pack shooters can have fun and make the shots, then the entry level shooters will be challenged and the top of the line shooter will put on demonstrations of why they are the best (It's gonna happen that way anyway) then all can have fun.

So bring your 600 yard guns to Mississippi this October. WE MIGHT try you out, or might not. BUT i'll guarantee you'll have a good time !!!

Hopalong

[FB3GDQ]

So, I'm not sure I understand your point. A 100 yard zero is no way to sight in a rifle to use at long range, unless you're chasing your targets with the elevation knob. Using the same ballistics program, sighted at 100 yards, a .308 190gr. (0.5 bc) going 3200 fps is around 9" low at 300. So, that little 55 gr. 223 bullet is within 3" of a 300 mag at 300 yards. I'd call that pretty flat shooting. In fact, if you fired 1 MOA groups at 300 from the two calibers, the 2 groups would be touching!

Sight that 223 4" high at 100 yards, and you're pretty much dead on at 300. The ammo I use isn't that fast, though, so I'm on at around 275 and a couple low at 300.

Using a 100m zero can be used with out using you elevation knob. Using 55gr and and an 18" barrel my muzz vel is about 2900 fps. With a 100m zero as long as I know my holds I can us it out to long ranges with out using elevation knob. My mill holds are in general 200m is a .41 mil 250m is a .75 mil hold 300m is a 1.13 mil hold over, and so on.

I have a mill dot recital in my scope so it is easy for me to use hold overs with out dialing, and I have pushed my regular .223, 55gr out to 700m on 12" plate. With first round hits. Now with out a mill dot recital and a 100m zero to hit a 6" plat at 200m hold at the top of the plate and you should hit the plate in the nose to slightly hight in the nose area.

Now another thing to consider on long range shots is if you are shooting first or second focal plain scopes. With a first focal plain scope your zero does not shift but your recital changes in size when you change the magnification on the scope. A second focal plain scope the recital stay the same with but the zero shifts when the scope magnification is changed. With a second focal plain scope you will notice the zero shift at greater distances.

I hope this does not confuses anybody about long range shooting.

FB3GDQ- AWESOME name bro!

thanks

[Bryan 45]

I answered 600.

It was 165 with different and challenging but not hard positions.

Hopalong

That's what I like!!! I have no trouble out to 350 or better w/ my iron sights and prone from a stable position, but I enjoy plucking at targets in the 150 to 250 range from non-typical positions much more. Barricades, bunkers, walls, windows, under trucks, over rocks, between trees, over the river and through the woods--- that's the rifle stages I like.

[Jeff F]

I voted for 300 and under only because there were not other choices. I have no problem going further if I am able to see the target and it is the proper size.

I don't want to be shooting MOA targets at 600 yrds.Make it a challanging but doable shot.

Nothing I hate worse than watching someone that doesn't shoot often going after the really long ones and wasting 10 roundson a target the simply cannot hit. Move on and go after the remaining targets.

[Les Snyder]

The FB3G matches and a couple of Kyle's NC matches are the only "major" matches I've shot so I might not be the best qualified... but a suggestion. For anything past 300m it would help if there was a berm behind the target to help correct for a miss. We like to shoot clay birds at 500m with a 16inch, 55grain, and 4x32 ACOG... but need help to determine wind drift. The yellow target identifiers on the flash targets a FB3G in the last couple of years have given me problems at 400+ but had a good run this year on stage one at the shorter distance.

regards Les