Poll- What do you believe should be the Max rifle range used at a 3-Gu

[sono]

I like shooting long shots. I run irons so just make them where they can be seen. I'm not saying make them bigger just good contrast or something. Atleast give you a chance to know where it is

[J.Schmitt]

Trapr, I like the common sense in your logic as it relates to this issue.

Jay

[jnikoley]

I voted for the 300 yard & less option, and despite the wording in the vote options, I agree with it 100%. I also agree with Trapr that different skill sets will be set apart by times, regardless of range. I know we aren't shooting "military" rifles, but 90% + of the rifles used are based on the AR-15/M-16, and there isn't an off the shelf (from your local gun store) AR-15, & factory ammo combination that could compete fairly with a highly modified 1/2 M.O.A. rifle with custom ammo at long range. We need to attract new shooters that can use equipment that is readily available, and be competitive with it. If 50% + shooters are going overtime, or could have earned a better or similar score by bypassing targets, then the targets are too far. I think it would be ok from time to time to place targets beyond 300, but not 8-12" inch plates, only full size targets (19" dia. plate, or IPSC metric size), and never beyond 600 yards.

[TonyH]

Stages should be challenging for all, from the novice to the experienced. 300 & proper size of target as Trapr has stated is the way to go. If you make a stage so hard for the novice (first time shooter) & he times out he may not be back. This has been the case with several new shooters I have brought to bigger matches. Stress with being there & timer running, sometimes turns into a max time & never got to all the targets.

Just a thought,

Tony

[gb32]

I agree with the 300 and in crowd. I also think you have to factor the shooting position into it. At th3 2008 FB3G I was on the staff for the long range rifle stage. Targets ranged from 75 yds to 416 yds. The shooting position was challenging and if you shot in the afternoon, the wind became an issue. I've never ran a stage that demoralized shooters to that degree. The three farthest targets were 335, 343 and 416 yds. On average those three targets accounted for as many rounds as the previous 8 or 9 targets. I understand that it's the shooters responsibility to be trained up and ready. It's when you see top flight shooters timing out that you start to wonder if something is wrong.

Gary Byerly

[M ammo]

I agree with the 300 and in crowd. I also think you have to factor the shooting position into it. At th3 2008 FB3G I was on the staff for the long range rifle stage. Targets ranged from 75 yds to 416 yds. The shooting position was challenging and if you shot in the afternoon, the wind became an issue. I've never ran a stage that demoralized shooters to that degree. The three farthest targets were 335, 343 and 416 yds. On average those three targets accounted for as many rounds as the previous 8 or 9 targets. I understand that it's the shooters responsibility to be trained up and ready. It's when you see top flight shooters timing out that you start to wonder if something is wrong.

Gary Byerly

You hit on a good point. As well as consistency in the stage.

I know we are to suck-it –up and shoot. But to stage consistency,

Past 300 yards the weather and sunlight throughout the day, or over the length of the match, make the stage a different stage. Depending on when you get to shoot it.

Examples, the laRue match this year, that first day, on long range. Thank god I got to shoot it on the second day.

And this year’s RM3G shooting the long range stage in the afternoon wind, I did get to shoot it in the wind. The folks that got to shoot it in the morning, got a gift from God.

The difference was night and day Pun intended? Out to 300 yards some of these situations can be mitigated, past 300 the real wind and drop game starts.

We should suck up many things and show up to the line prepared.

But as match directors we need to make the stage the same as possible for as many competitors as possible.

If you shoot in the dead of the morning calm. And others shoot in 30 MPH cross wind. And you beat them,,, Did you really beat them???

If you are a better shooter. And you beat me I’m ok with that, I will do my best to learn and be a better shooter.

BUT!! consistency in the stage!! Same>>> same. for all competitors is very important.

Jim M ammo

[uscbigdawg]

To hell with all that. 300+. It's a rifle. If I wanted to shoot a pistol match with a rifle, well...I'd just shoot a pistol match. 300 yards is nothing with an AR, especially since we had guys hitting man sized targets at 800 with their factory AR's in about a steady 6 with gusts to 12 mph wind. Them little 75 & 77gr. pills were getting thrown but if a shooter that has never shot longer 100 yards can do it in a span of an hour, a little bit of time on the range can get you squared away from 300-500.

As for similar/consistent conditions, suck it up and shoot. Unless we start shooting in a box, it'll never be identical and frankly, the conditions are the conditions for every one. I'm pretty sure the sheet of ice that was on the roof at FTB3G last year sucked for the guys in the morning. I know it did for the guys on the bridge. The answer? Oh well...it's not USPSA or IDPA.

Just shoot the stage as it is and do a little bit of homework starting with zero'ing the rifle. Little bit of time getting some FREE data from JBM ballistics and then doing a little homework on the range to check POI's out to 300-500. And before the statement comes of a lot of ranges only go to 100, you can easily check POI on a 100 yard range with a ruler and your data. Heck...at most matches a hard 50 yard zero will take care of EVERY long range shot you'll need.

Rich

[Lee King]

Personally I don't really care what the distances are as long as it's fun. For me variety is the fun. I have all these cool toys in my closet and I want to shoot them all. If all I do is shoot targets with a rifle at arms length then I'll get bored pretty quick. Same thing if all of the targets are out at 600 yards. So far the matches I have shot have stretched my abilities with all of them. Pistol shots at 83 yards.. Rifle at 400ish with a serious crosswind.. outside bright sunlit targets to inside in the dark back to outside again. All interesting and fun.

It is my experience, at least in my neck of the woods, having a facility to support 3 gun is a challenge. If a MD has stages that are fun and challenging in a pistol bay with a rifle I'd still be happy.

[kellyn]

I wanted to vote for 600 plus but as a practical matter I think that 400 yards is about as far out as we should go for most 3 gun.

First, most facilities are not capable of 500-600 yard shooting so many shooters will be ill-equipped to compete against those who have such a facility.

Second, stages with really long shots take forever to complete and really can slow a match down. Maybe 10-20% of the shooters are really going to be prepared and equipped to deal with these kind of shots. The rest will wail away with dozens if not hundreds of rounds.

Third, IMHO 400 yards is about the realistic effective PRACTICAL range of the .223 carbine (Highpower notwithstanding). And this sport is (and should be) based around the performance envelope of the .223 carbine.

Fourth, it is not really going to change the rankings. The same people will be winning and probably by a greater margin.

Fifth, I see enough shooters struggling with 200 - 300 yard shots. Let's have the mass of 3 gunners master that before we move on. Plus it is disheartening to see people struggle as they do now. I can hardly imagine scene when we start having regular 600 yard shots. TonyH is right (as he usually is), we could scare away a lot of potential recruits.

Sixth, I agree that (as with Larue this year) it will really add an element of inconsistency in the match. If, on a long long range course, I have to shoot in 25 mph winds one day and Robbie Johnson gets no wind the next day (or vice versa!), the weather is going to have a huge impact on scores. Highpower gets around this by squadding most of the potential winners on the same relay but that is not something we can do in 3 gun.

[uscbigdawg]

...Highpower gets around this by squadding most of the potential winners on the same relay but that is not something we can do in 3 gun.

Super Squad?

I agree with Kelly that 400 is about the "practical" limit for 3-Gun matches and the rifle. The biggest problem again is folks not being able to hit 200-300 yard targets, much less 400-500. Thank goodness for timing out.

Rich

[Bryan 45]

Rich, you just gave me a good laugh. The first half dozen 3 gun matches I shot were local, with 100 yard max targets- all paper. I show up at BRM3G this year as an RO, and as Andy Horner is going over everything he discusses timing-out. It took me a little bit to grasp the concept of not being allowed to finish a stage. At first I felt it was somehow unfair that a competitor would be told to stop before the course of fire was complete.

But, then we started shooting-- and it all changed! By the end of the 2 days we shot as ROs, I was happy I only timed-out on one stage! The trend continued with the shooters, I'd say that on the toughest stages up to 10% timed out. I don't feel the cause of this was the stages were too difficult, it's mostly because the competitors came unprepared for shooting at 300+

[kellyn]

Super Squad?

Some matches do this but others do not.

[bigbrowndog]

I tried it at the HPSC, but with people requesting to shoot with friends and fellow travelers squads get out of hand. and it tough to do, although i think as a whole it worked out fairly well.

we used to do it in Archery but the COF were shot twice, once on the open squad day and then again on the final day with you shooting with your competition. A match of that format would be easy to set up but how would shooters feel about reshooting the same COF on a second day?????????

Trapr

[uscbigdawg]

That would be interesting Trapr. According to kgunz11 they've done it at LR matches. CBS at 200 on day 1 and then a CBS at 400 on day 2. 2-3 MOA target.

How about a KYL stage on the clock?

Rich

[P.E. Kelley]

RM3G_Top_33.pdf

I really liked stage #1 the Long Range stage at RM3Gun but it was perhaps a little to difficult?

Heck I f'ing forgot to SHOOT AT the 600 yarder and I had spot on range dope! That added what 15+ seconds to my score?

The attachment is the TOP 33 OVERALL as one division and only 11 persons scored 70% of the stage winning score.

Sorry I am kinda computer dumb at the moment you will have to rotate the document yourself.

The penciled in number next the names are the times for the stage winner per division.

I know the squad before mine shot in nasty wind as did we. (Robby Johnson, Daniel Horner, David Neth, Tate Moots,)

Bottom line for me, if I can see it I can hit it! Just let me see it!

Patrick

[Glen]

I picked 300 as the maximum I want.

For the long-range advocates ... How many iron-sight

guys can make the shot before timing out? Do you hold

a separate match just for them? (/grumpy)

I prefer something similar to the IPSC distance balance

and let a well-constructed COF sort things out.

Glen

[diablodawg]

I haven't shot past 300 in 3-gun, but have made 500 yard shots with an issue 14.5" iron sighted M4 all day long. The issue is time- on military quals there is no pressing time limit and seconds don't really count. Then again, we shoot for a 12" circle inside of a silhouette, not against a 6" plate or what not. I think that a few in the 5-600 yard range would be fine, so long as the timer didn't go out and the target was large enough- thinking hit/miss on a silhouette would be good with a backdrop you can see your hits on.

[bigbrowndog]

What was max time on stage 1 at rm3g, I seem to recall it was longer than the 180secs. standard????

trapr

[3gunpinoy]

Stages should be challenging for all, from the novice to the experienced. 300 & proper size of target as Trapr has stated is the way to go. If you make a stage so hard for the novice (first time shooter) & he times out he may not be back. This has been the case with several new shooters I have brought to bigger matches. Stress with being there & timer running, sometimes turns into a max time & never got to all the targets.

Just a thought,

Tony

well, i have seen this happen. brought a couple of new wannabe 3 gunners and could not hit a 300 yd flasher. came back 2 to3 times and still could not succeed and never showed back. complaint, we all know that.

if we can design a stage that both top shooters and newbies can come out and enjoy, then i guess we have hot the jackpot

it;s not all about the distance, its about the game and skill level that one tries to perfect and compete on.

[smokshwn]

I picked 300 as the maximum I want.

For the long-range advocates ... How many iron-sight

guys can make the shot before timing out?

Glen

Glen,

The answer to your question is a whole lot of them....

As has been stated many times already...if you give them a reasonable chance to see/distinguish the target it is gonna be hit.

Edited September 9, 2009 by smokshwn

[ken hebert]

What was max time on stage 1 at rm3g, I seem to recall it was longer than the 180secs. standard????

trapr

300 sec with the bonus a -15 sec.

[GentlemanJim]

I am not into this (fairness doctrin) for less adept shooters

Are we trying to make the new guy happy by easy button?

Oh please...if you cant hit a hard target...your direct competition cant either!

Yes the top guys can and will...including the iron shooters.

Dumbing down is NEVER the answer...and parody does not exist

We as a whole need to bring new shooters up to speed...with our time and effort

Not reduce the challenge.

If you never have to strive for the top...you will never get there!

JMHO

Jim

[Charles Bond]

I suspect that many of the reponses here are driven by the max range at the local match or the max range at whatever practice facility that is available. All I can say is that I really appreciate getting to have some challenging ranges at matches like BR3G where as often as not, it was not only the range but the angle and the wind (yes we can shoot cross canyon in the east).

[kellyn]

I think targets at 300 meters are pretty challenging!

[TonyH]

I am not into this (fairness doctrin) for less adept shooters

Are we trying to make the new guy happy by easy button?

Oh please...if you cant hit a hard target...your direct competition cant either!

Yes the top guys can and will...including the iron shooters.

Dumbing down is NEVER the answer...and parody does not exist

We as a whole need to bring new shooters up to speed...with our time and effort

Not reduce the challenge.

If you never have to strive for the top...you will never get there!

JMHO

Jim

I've seen plenty of very adept shooters struggle with 300 yd. targets & closer.

Edited September 9, 2009 by TonyH