When is a gun dropped?

[flattop]

A DQ is the right call but I'm sure I'd probably try to catch my blaster too. Trip for ice cream for me!!

[shred]

FWIW, a few years back a shooter was practicing, their gun dropped, they caught it by the trigger, it fired and killed them. Not a good scene. Learn to let it drop.

[Carlos]

FWIW, a few years back a shooter was practicing, their gun dropped, they caught it by the trigger, it fired and killed them. Not a good scene. Learn to let it drop.

I have to agree 100%. The instinct you must develop is to learn to let even that $3000 custom open gun smash to the floor. Please, do it for our sake, if not for yours. Here is what happens (or worse) negligent discharge in real life:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&...=5&t=918408

[XRe]

Y'all may want to check out the updated definition of dropped in the Sept 2008 addenda to the rules. Makes this situation much clearer.

Not really? The addendum says "(during the Course of Fire)"? They're talking about someone dropping and then handling a gun outside of the Course of Fire....???

[Gary Stevens]

Y'all may want to check out the updated definition of dropped in the Sept 2008 addenda to the rules. Makes this situation much clearer.

Not really? The addendum says "(during the Course of Fire)"? They're talking about someone dropping and then handling a gun outside of the Course of Fire....???

Outside the course of fire it is handling.

[All-Gator]

Here's a situation that was just a little different: While walking downrange to paste I turned and caught the end of my belt with my forearm. The outer belt began to unwind from the inner belt. I caught it after about 2/3 had loosened. So, I'm standing there with my (mostly) loose belt with a holstered firearm. The RO (standing next to me) did not DQ me as he later said, "You had no access to the trigger." My understanding is that he made the right call.

??

A-G

[XRe]

Y'all may want to check out the updated definition of dropped in the Sept 2008 addenda to the rules. Makes this situation much clearer.

Not really? The addendum says "(during the Course of Fire)"? They're talking about someone dropping and then handling a gun outside of the Course of Fire....???

Outside the course of fire it is handling.

That was my point, basically... the addendum doesn't do anything to help clarify it, though, near as I can tell?

[Cigar Guy]

Here's a situation that was just a little different: While walking downrange to paste I turned and caught the end of my belt with my forearm. The outer belt began to unwind from the inner belt. I caught it after about 2/3 had loosened. So, I'm standing there with my (mostly) loose belt with a holstered firearm. The RO (standing next to me) did not DQ me as he later said, "You had no access to the trigger." My understanding is that he made the right call.

??

A-G

That wasn't me was it? I made that very same call at Area 7 this year. Shooter was coming back uprange from taping and the velcro outer belt started pulling away from the inner belt. The outer belt was attached in front, and had little metal hooks into eyelets just like a leather belt. The holster side was on top. The weight of the holster and handgun accelerated the process. Shooter was standing there with pasters in his hand and the holstered gun hanging halfway off his belt at his knees. One of my ROs helped him get it back on the inner belt. We sent him over to the safe area to unholster and reattach everything. No DQ since the trigger was never exposed.

For those who are reading this thread, most 2-piece belts work better if you overlap in back. The first side of the outer belt that should attach is the holster side, because it carries the most weight. The magazine side should overlap the holster side, in back. Also, a keeper is a really handy piece, the little 4-6 inch strip of fabric or leather that fastens over the belt joint. If you do not have one of those for your rig, find one or make one. The belts do not work as well without the keeper.

[IL-SIG]

What happens with the guys who are now wearing the bag around their pistol and holster while still on their belt. What happens if the pistol dislodges from the holster, but does not hit the ground because the bag holds it. If the shooter goes directly to a safe area to remedy the situation, they never "handled" the weapon, but they may in fact have lost control. I would think this situation would NOT result in a DQ. Maybe a good reason to use the bag.

Thoughts?

[JThompson]

First it's a clear DQ.

Now on to the drift that I have been reading. My guns are tools and nothing more, there is little to get broke if it hits the dirt, but who likes a nice little ding right? Here's what I was thinking about the gun dropping after the course of fire ergo resetting steel. I submit that it might be as dangerous to let the gun hit as to catch it, esp those of us with long pins. Just a thought...........

JT

Edited September 1, 2009 by JThompson

[George Jones]

Outside the course of fire it is handling.

That was my point, basically... the addendum doesn't do anything to help clarify it, though, near as I can tell?

Each of the new definitions stands on its own, so read them as individual definitions without trying to blend them together.

One addresses "handling" (anywhere). The other deals with a dropped gun during a COF to clarify that the gun does not have to hit the dirt to be "dropped".

If you catch a falling gun outside a COF, you are "handling".

OK?

[XRe]

OK?

Fair enough I was just readin the "dropped gun" one...

[Flexmoney]

You boys that are all worried about dropping your jewelry ought to get a nicer purse.

Or, you could take your new tool out of the bubble wrap and properly break it in, then quit worrying about it.

[kgunz11]

That's a good video Flex. Larry is one of those kinds of guys that is "anti-pansy". Can't say I agree with him and his concept of breaking a gun in, but he is also the only guy I know that gets free condoms from the health department to put on the muzzle of his rifle every day! (he lives in a very rainy Alaska)

[shred]

...But, before anybody gets any ideas, removing your entire belt (or even an enclosed holster) to "bag" outside of a safe area was ruled a DQ offense a while back, access to the trigger or not. A falling-off belt would be right on the line you don't want to cross.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/nroi_rulings.ph...dit&indx=39

[IPSCDRL]

That wasn't me was it? I made that very same call at Area 7 this year.

Nope, that was you and I at A-7. No harm, no foul.

Michael.

[slip knot]

# 10 right on.

# 12, you can't back away faster than a sppeding bullet....

Catch it and lay it on the ground.. Then call the RO..

[Dan Hefta]

I truely understand the "always loaded" golden rule and respect that...

,,,,but I know it's not loaded, the RO that cleared me on the last stage that I shot knows it's not loaded...and I don't want my $2K limited gun hitting the ground !

You know you're contradicting yourself here --- and putting everyone else on the range in danger, right? A better plan would be to bag the gun between stages, or get a better holster. Safety rules are designed to offer redundancies; breaking one gets you closer to having a potentially fatal accident. Is $2,000 really worth that level of risk?

So am I putting my family at risk when I dryfire practice at home? I know that the gun is unloaded then too. I think that if a shooters gun is unloaded and holstered and it falls from the holster, if the shooter chooses to catch it he is not putting anyone at risk. Of course the shooter will get DQed but that was his or her choice. We should not make someone feel guilty of endangering others when they are not. IMHO

[Nik Habicht]

I truely understand the "always loaded" golden rule and respect that...

,,,,but I know it's not loaded, the RO that cleared me on the last stage that I shot knows it's not loaded...and I don't want my $2K limited gun hitting the ground !

You know you're contradicting yourself here --- and putting everyone else on the range in danger, right? A better plan would be to bag the gun between stages, or get a better holster. Safety rules are designed to offer redundancies; breaking one gets you closer to having a potentially fatal accident. Is $2,000 really worth that level of risk?

So am I putting my family at risk when I dryfire practice at home?

Depends --- what's behind your target? I use the yellow dry-fire barrels from Blade-tech when I dryfire.....

Re-reading that earlier post --- it seems more contentious than I wanted it to be. It probably would have come off better in person at a match, with the ability to engage in immediate follow-up conversation.....

I know that the gun is unloaded then too. I think that if a shooters gun is unloaded and holstered and it falls from the holster, if the shooter chooses to catch it he is not putting anyone at risk.

I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm betting that if we surveyed accidental shootings across the U.S. for a year, a number of those would involve someone uttering the phrase "but I thought/knew it was unloaded." There's a reason that "Guns are always loaded" is part of the four rules. There's a reason why we have shooters pull the trigger after unloading and showing clear. (That by the way is incredibly easy to do -- to show clear -- but I've already witnessed a couple of DQs at that point for a shot fired during unloading. But hey, "we know" that all the guns on the range are unloaded. Umm, how exactly? :P ) There's a reason why we prohibit gun handling outside a course of fire. Now lets turn this around --- and look at what could and probably would happen in the case of an accidental shooting on the range.

You're the match director. One of your closest friends is the assistant MD. Friends of yours are the stage designers and builders and the R.O.s. One of your competitors accidentally shoots someone else on the range --- who do you suppose gets sued? You're automatically on the list --- but so are your closest friends, your host club, and anyone else even tangentially involved. I take range safety seriously because I wouldn't wish the consequences of an accidental shooting on any of my friends. Not the civil suit, not the potential criminal defense, not the potential of losing a club, and most of all not the guilt associated with knowing that they could have taken a little step to do things in a safer manner. And let's not lose sight of the fact that we might be burying someone we'd consider a friend.....

Of course the shooter will get DQed but that was his or her choice. We should not make someone feel guilty of endangering others when they are not. IMHO

Do you really think that being DQ'd for breaking a safety rule should be a shooter's choice? Our game is potentially dangerous. That danger is mitigated/eliminated by our knowledge of and adherence to the safety rules. Any compromise with following or enforcing those rules endangers us all. That shooter's choice endangers either himself or every other person on the range.

[Cigar Guy]

That wasn't me was it? I made that very same call at Area 7 this year.

Nope, that was you and I at A-7. No harm, no foul.

Michael.

Wow, the description just seemed very similar to the A7 call. Did you find some keepers for your belt?

[mpeltier]

The RO is summoned. If you are the RO what do you do and why?

So the RO did not witness this? Or did the guy freeze and stand there motionless till the RO got there? Just trying to get a picture of what happened. If the RO did not see it, did the guy just admit to it, after bieng told on? Yeah i know its all about safety, I get that. Just trying to understand the RO was summoned part.

[SA Friday]

The RO is summoned. If you are the RO what do you do and why?

So the RO did not witness this? Or did the guy freeze and stand there motionless till the RO got there? Just trying to get a picture of what happened. If the RO did not see it, did the guy just admit to it, after bieng told on? Yeah i know its all about safety, I get that. Just trying to understand the RO was summoned part.

Been trying to stay out of this one...

I was standing next to him and saw him catch it (muzzle down at the ground). I told him to freeze and called for the RO. I told the RO what happened and stepped out of it. The RO made his call from there. I know the rules, but was not ROing the stage at the time of the occurance being discussed. So, I stayed out of it.

That's the last I'll comment on this situation.

[Flyin40]

I'm catching the gun regardless of what the rules say. Its a safety issue for me. If I drop a gun I'm automatically going to grab it. I have seen guns going off hitting the ground, catching on a branch after it fell. I have caught plenty of guns from hitting the ground and 99% of the time it was from people not really paying attention to what they are doing when they lean a gun against a tree or lay it on a tailgate. I have seen my dogs knock several guys guns over because they weren't used to the dogs running around them or jumping at their feet.

For those who say let it fall.....that is safe?? A gun hitting the ground can go off just as easily as catching one. There is no way to say one is safer than the other. To have a loaded gun hit the ground without the safety on? In the holster the safety is off except if your on the line and we treat all guns as loaded while walking around. There is always a chance that it is going to go off if you try to catch it but in my opinion is has a greater chance going off hitting the ground. Bottom line it won't make a difference if the gun goes off hitting the ground or catching it and there isn't a shred of proof that either is safer than the other. The end result if an accident happens it is going to be tragic and everyone knows that. So to me it does come down to the individual choosing what to do. We will always be able to say afterward should done this or shouldn't have done that and you will never know what really wouldn't have happened if it was done differently.

There is no way to say which is safe and which is not and if someone wants to let their gun drop because they believe that is the safest thing then I'm fine with that. If something happens they will have to deal with consequences the same as I would if a gun went off while I tried to catch it.

Nobody wants to come to a match and have an accident happen.....and we do alot to avoid any which leads me to my next point.

We can't compare the individuals in our sport to every Joe Public when it comes to accidents and guns. I hear and see this alot and it makes no sense at all to throw that stuff in there. If someone wants to talk about having rules because some Joe Smoe has an accident or something like Nik said about surveying everyone and they would say "I thought the gun was unloaded" then by the same logic we shouldn't be aloud to run around with loaded guns or there shouldn't be allowed to even be Uspsa

because of all the accidents out there. And Nik this isn't about you at all, this is something I see alot and hear it alot. The members make this sport safe and the amount of time and energy that we put out to make this a safe sport is huge. We go above and beyond to do the things necessary to make it safe so to lump us in with everyone is pretty much an insult to me and our sport. In no way am I saying your were trying to insult me or anyone else and I don't believe for one second you meant it that way but its just a slap in the face to hear that kind of stuff.

Again Nik I'm not trying to single you out and want you to know I think you do a great job but I see this alot from alot of different people on the forums(and just dealt with it on the Ipsc forums) and hear it alot at matches and I don't like hearing it. I like shooting this sport but one of the things that I like most about our sport and that I'm most proud of being a member of Uspsa is how safe our members are and how much effort they put into being safe. The biggest area this shows is helping out new shooters understand how important safety is and that we take it very seriously. I know Nik probably has helped dozen and dozens and probably hundreds of guys out with safety issues with the intention of making our sport better. Thats what I like is members putting forth that effort. One of the things when I describe this to someone who never seen or heard of Uspsa is how much fun it is and the very next thing is talking about safety and how seriously we take it.

Flyin

[Singlestack]

I'm catching the gun regardless of what the rules say.

Flyin,

How do you think the sport got as safe as it is? Do you think it could have anything to do with people following the rules?

[kgunz11]

I'm catching the gun regardless of what the rules say.

Flyin,

How do you think the sport got as safe as it is? Do you think it could have anything to do with people following the rules?

Is there is a rule that says you cannot catch the gun if it's falling? I understand catching can land you a disqualification from the match, but to some folks a $20+ match fee is worth it. I know a dropped gun outside the CoF has to be picked up by an RO. Why not call the RO over and say "I dropped my gun out of my holster while resetting this steel and caught it here against my leg, can you retrieve it for me so I'm not "handling" it?" The RO can then make the call as to rather or not he thinks the competitor was "handling" the gun. I'd have a hard time holding it against a guy/gal, but the fact remains that the rule book must be followed. In this case handling would be an interpretation best left up to the MD.