Switching from Fiber Optic to Irons

[Field]

yeah i was going to try blacked front but what some of these dudes are talking about with holding the red dot up too high and shooting high i never had a problem with because i still looked at the top of the sight to line up my shots

[Field]

when your looking into the sun or you got a bunch of smoke in your face or shooting at dark targets or some of those factors i would tend to think the fiber optic is going to let you see better but ill just have to give it a good whirl and come to an educated conclusion.

[spursguy10]

Coming from a guy who learned to shoot by a former policeman who taught point shootin, I like fiber optics due to fast find the reg fiber. I never liked dot the I sights found on kahr, but do like reg iron. But I would prefer solid black rear and fiber front...in green!

[Field]

On front sight height, the most important thing is that when the sights are aligned, there is not any slide visible in the bottom of the notch. I liked my front sight to be just tall enough so that, as the front sight's coming down into the notch, just as the slide disappears from the notch the front blade is level with the top of the notch.

Although I couldn't visually confirm/prove it, I always felt that relationship helped me "park the front sight" more expeditiously.

be

Right now i have a .1 wide x .165 tall front sight combined with the factory sight that has a .125 wide notch and for shooting pretty much anything im doing more or less a 6aclock hold which i like because it lets you see a bit more of what you are shooting at, but then with what you were talking about i actually do see part of the slide when the sights are aligned. With shooting fiber optic i thought this was fine... but with black sights im thinking that i might actually be wanting taller sights and possibly a little bit wider of a notch in the rear.

[Field]

idk was i kind of thinking of getting these heini slant pros with a .140 wide notch but they dont specify the front sight height dimensions. duhhhh

http://www.heinie.com/product_info.php?cPath=9_14&products_id=68

Edited July 8, 2010 by Field

[Field]

this is a dawson .1x.160 front combined with a heini .140 rear on the xdm9

this is the heini front .125x.215 plus the .140 rear on the xdm40. personally i feel the heini front sight is maybe a bit wide for my taste. i think i am going to file it a little bit.

im not sure the point of impact difference to be had comparing a .160 tall front to a .215 tall front but i guess ill find out later.

i didnt really want to jack with the front sight on the 9mm cause to me i thought that combo looked fine. mainly i jacked that factory rear sight up really bad and painted it and it looked garbage. this rear sight is alot better.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Field

[Bongo Boy]

My experience with the FO sight was limited to indoor range shooting for a few thousand rounds, then the first time outside was at a recent classifier match. Whoa. Not the time to find out what the sight looks like it daylight. It's embarassing to say, but Stage 1 String 1 was the first time I'd seen that puppy light up like a Christmas tree bulb. That was a distracting shock, to say the least.

Anyway, it was a major distraction all day, not having a flat-top blade up front, but rather this big glowing green headlamp. So, the idea above, of partially obscuring the FO, should be a real hit I'd think. Being able to turn down the light coming into the sight from above using an adjustable sleeve would be a great feature (if not already available).

For me, however, I have a set of serrated black sights shipping out tomorrow. I thought that an FO front sight on the MP Pro 40 5" was a weird set up before I even got the gun, but figured there must be something good about it and would give it a try. Just not for me--too many other things to spend my time learning.

I never really noticed the white dots on my Sig or on my MP45, but my guess is that they are distractions, too, and I just don't know it yet.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[GlowingDonut]

I use the glowing FO front to track the front sight during recoil and transitions, but I always use the flat top of the FS for the final sight alignment before calling the shot. I like how bright it can be, but you can apply a little flat black paint to part of the fiber to cut down on it's intensity.

[dangucci]

I like the fiber optic front sight for indoors. I will usually neglect cleaning it for a while before I start shooting outdoor matches so I get some soot on it to tone it down a bit.

[Seth]

FWIW, this thread is nearing 2 years old. A lot has changed in 2 years. I've learned a lot about shooting and a lot about aiming. I also learned that a fiber has no place on a precision instrument that I'm shooting. Its not an aid, its a distraction from a lot of information that the sights can provide.

I made a wise decision and in doing so, I learned how to aim.

[Danva]

i to like the FO front sight. When my glasses were new I could see the back of the front sight clearly and exactly.

I think I have worn my lenses out looking through them though. I am going to eye doctor today and will be talking to my friends at Decot tomorrow. They have helped me find my front sight before.

I think SEEING the front sight and being able to keep seeing it when you are shooting is all important.

burn it into what you are shooting at!

I thought Seth was only 20..........

[fastmtnbiker33w]

Its not an aid, its a distraction from a lot of information that the sights can provide.

I've only been shooting IPSC for about 4 months now and I've been using a FO front. I've noticed myself rushing shots thinking that red dot is on the target, but I end up completely missing. I find myself not even centering the front sight in the rear notch. Totally distracting.

This thread has made up my mind. I'm ordering a serrated black front sight today and hopefully it will be here soon enough for me to get a day of practice before my next match.

[sirveyr]

I just swapped out all of the Warren Tactical FO sights on my Glocks a few weeks ago. I am really digging the new Warren Tactial serrated irons. I've had the irons on my carry Glocks for years. After spending a few months shooting the crap out of my 19, I switched all of my competition guns over. The crisp sight pictures are amazing. I only wish that I would pay attention to what they are telling me.

[Crazy Scientist]

+1 for this thread.

I was thinking of putting a fiber optic on my 1911 (actually 1991A1) because I had much trouble with finding my sights indoors (where I primarily shoot). AFter review I think my problem isn't the black on black, its the front sight post is about as wide as you can get, no daylight on either side. Even doing my CHL with a 3-dot Beretta 96 didn't seem to make much difference (I had wondered about the blacking out of the dots as recommended by several people, I thought they would be a help, but experience proved otherwise)

I do know that putting nail polish helped on my Makarov for a BUG match, but reviewing this, it may be an apples/oranges as it's front site is considerably narrower.

Also that may change my opinion of the 629 sight post--bright orange, and dead accurate, but then again, i don't do any quick shooting with it.

[ck1]

Kind of reverse point-of-view here: just picked up a new gun and knew I was going to have to change out the front sight as the stocker as it comes is too wide for me and I'd also be getting used to a narrower rear notch (STI Trojan w/ Bo-Mar-style rear), nice light bars are what I'm after and I've been really shooting well using a .090"W front with a .125"W rear notch on a slightly shorter gun. The only in-stock option in the width I wanted (.090") that was offered by the shop I was getting my set-up from happened to be an FO, so figured I'd give it a whirl...

WOW. After shooting all-black irons exclusively for about a year now the FO is crazy distracting! At first after the install I was kind of digging the "gimmicky/novalty-ness" of that bright glowing dot, and for sure the sight is a well executed design with a small perfectly round dot that's super-bright (Dawson Precision sight), that said, I can't stand it, ordered a regular serrated black front on my iPhone from the range after only 100rds.

I found I just could not get my brain to cooperate and focus more on alignment than the stupid dot without trying really hard, also a surprise was the tracking under recoil, following the dot was easy but my second shot of a quick controlled pair was either off from thinking the dot was where it was supposed to be, or just plain slow as I needed extra time to let it "settle down" and not just pull the trigger again with the glowing dot in the notch (felt like I was having to fight it from tricking me).

I could tell I was not only way less accurate with the FO, but now, actually slower.

Just a guess, but I think the "uncluttered/crisp-ness" of the all-black irons makes it easier for our brains to get the necessary info needed to line up the sights without having to "compute" anything extraneous. Neat experiment for me at least.

Edited January 29, 2011 by ck1

[Jeff Matzka]

I've had the red FO sight on my CZ Shadow since I bought the gun in September, 2009. Just started realizing recently that it wasn't having the desired effect of helping me keep better track of the front sight - that it felt easier with guns that had a plain black front sight. So, I ordered one from Dawson, and installed it this afternoon. I haven't been to the range with it yet, but it just looks easier to track and pick up. Even with my 50-year old, bifocal-needing eyes. Of course, actual shooting will tell. Now, if the weather would just cooperate...

[Wild Gene]

After reading a lot of threads here about f/o vs irons I decided I wanted to try a traditional serrated black sight instead of a red fiber optic front.

I have learned that I been getting the incomplete information from the fiber. I always found it hard to REALLY hard focus on it. I never did get the crispness of a sight picture Brian describes in his book.

But I did learn some things I'm trying to digest. I'm not tracking the sights hard enough. I believe the fiber allows me to 'cheat' my way back but I'm guessing my accuracy was suffering substantially. I now know what you guys mean when you're talking about SEEING the serrations in the front sight. Never seen that before.

I'm having trouble digesting the new information. I really liked shooting straight irons, but don't know what to do with it. Is there a performance gain to be made in 'backing up'?

Seth,

I too have seen the light. Last weekend I literally shot a case of ammo with my gun (a 5" Edge with F/O), and a few different 6" guns. All I did was 1)shoot groups, 2)draw and shoot once at one target, 3) draw and shoot twice at one target, 4) draw and shoot once at two targets, and 5) Draw and shoot twice at two targets.

Only my gun had the F/O front sight.

When shooting groups, try as I might, I could not get my eyes to really focus on the front sight. There was always this big red blob there. With a 5" gun, I could clearly see the front black sight, and with the 6" gun I could clearly make out not only the front sight, but the serrations. They were HUGE!

With the black iron sights, I did not have to work as hard to refocus on the front sight for my next shot. It just appeared. Somehow, my "focus shift" was smoother and more precise. By focus shift, I mean from the target, to the front sight, to the next target, and back to my front sight. I do not think my brain is able to add "depth" to the red F/O or something, as if it has trouble placing where it should be.

I would tend to think the F/O would really be a problem for someone that shoots an open gun with a red dot sight. I think you would tend to start shooting your F/O like it was a Red Dot.

My groups were much smaller with the black iron sights. Granted, the gun may have been part of it, but when I blacked out the front F/O sight on my gun, my groups shrank again (but were still not as small as the groups fired with the 6" custom guns).

I do not think it is a bad thing to try the red F/O, it seemed to help me focus on the front area of the gun, but the black iron just refines the focus onto the serrations of the front sight.

Hope that made sense.

Good shooting,

Wild Gene

[CatsEye]

I have noticed a 'not quite the same but similar' thing recently. I have been shooting my M&P9 Pro with a front FO for a couple of years. Last month I got a M&P 45 to shoot some IDPA CDP. It has a black rear sight but still has the white dot front sight. After shooting a couple of matches with it I have found that I am actually seeing my sights better then I ever have.

Rick

[Got Juice?]

Reading this post helps me understand my own shooting. And I will be switching my new Tanfoglio to Iron sights. for me 20/15 uncorrected vision, and a rifle shooter, I am all backwards when it comes to naturally sighting a target. I am less of a point shooter and more of an aiming shooter. And for that, the FO Front Sight just looks like a fuzzy blob because my focal point is on the target first.

So I performed a little experiment. With my Model 46 , I did a mock IPSC shoot, with black irons. I then added da-glo red paint to the front sight to simulate the 'dot' in a FO front.

The results confirm it for me. I shoot faster, and more accurately with a plain sight than a FO one.

Interesting to note. When I did uncork the comped 357SIG top end through the same COF, I blackened the front sight with a magic marker. And the results are an exact duplicate of the .22 experiment.

If I ever decide to shoot open, I plan on not using a 'dot' sight. Just to see if all the pistol silhouette pays off using irons only, and how it will lend itself to the IPSC shooting.

[Remington4Life]

Anyone using a gold bead front sight? Im thinking about bringing it back..

[oak hill]

Lots of good info on this thread!

I still find myself torn between a black serrated front and FO. I prefer the FO for short to mid range as it give me a good "flash" sight picture, but certainly agree that a black front sight allows for better precision sighting.

A gold bead might just be a good comprimise between the two??

[Mr Unnatural]

Solution if you're in doubt of switching your front sight.

hi

After reading this discussion and a miserable match performance I started doubting my FO choice. I got into the game after a few years and I thought I had to have a FO. I had some trouble of the start with them, less accurate and a hard time to stay focused on the front sight.

This part could be posted in the match scew up department ass well.

During my first IPSC match, wich means stage briefing 3 minutes walkthrough and being first on the line at a diffecult long course. I was just looking for the targets and trying to be speedy and shoot in control, the last thing didn't work, lots of mikes that resulted in penalties.

My first bear-trap was special, it felt like a sucker punc, one shot 3 scores, 2 penalties because I hit two no shoots. see pic.

I shot a session without the fibre optic in it, not really a black front sight but allready less distracting. My accuracy improved and so did my confidence.

This weekend I took a BLACK fibre from a garden broom and checked how it behaved near a heat source, it behaved just like fibre optic. Size was simular oofcourse.

So I changed my gree fibre optic for black one, and I could experience all the positives mentioned in the discussion.

My confidence improved, my speed improved (because I could trust my speedometer again) and I could call my shots again, something I had a reaaly hard time with using a fibre optic.

So without having to change my front sight I could check my own experience if I preferred a FO or not.

If appreciated I can post a pic of the black fibre optic insert.

regards

PS If some one has a drwaing and some instructions on building a bear-trap please PM me, I need to get better at this.

[Wild Gene]

Great post, and that shot was the pits! It is so close, so very, very close...

[MemphisMechanic]

I've been running a S&W M&P with a Dawson F/O front and plain rear for about a year now.

And for 11 months of the year, I've had a black plastic broom bristle installed in the front sight as my 'fiber'. Yeah, I'm back to flat black sights. Again.

As Copland said, that little black plastic straw can be cut down and flared with a lighter just like the red or green fiber. If you shoot fiber optics and want to give this a try, swap it out and head to the range.

No need to buy a new front post just to experiment.

Edited April 6, 2011 by MemphisMechanic

[kalebg]

I started with plain black, then went to fiber, then switched back to black. I feel like I can focus "harder" on a serrated plain black sight. I actually see the serrations while shooting.