benos Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I figured that title would get a few click throughs. You know how when you pick up a beer and there was a lot less beer in the can than you thought there was so the can comes whipping off the table quicker than it normally does... Well that happened to me over the weekend. And it was really weird because instantly the words "there's an analogy to recoil control there" popped into my mind. At first I had no idea what I was thinking about. But then I puzzled on it for a bit and it made sense in a weird way. After shooting a given gun/load for a bit, your body learns and remembers, as the shot fires, how to quickly get the sights back in alignment. It's nothing that can be taught, you just have to shoot, and your body will figure it out. Ed McGivern called it a "poke" move. You just learn to poke the muzzle back into alignment. (Of course a good grip assists in that, but that's not my point here.) When you think about it, isn't it amazing that your body can "remember" the correct amount of effort/force to use each time you pick up a beer can? And its weight changes with every drink. What does that have to do with anything? I don't know, but I thought it was interesting. Maybe just go and practice. Since this a silly post, I'll drift it myself in the opening post. BTW, anyone know who said "go and practice"? (It's fun to say to people, on any topic.) It sounds like Bruce Lee, maybe in Enter the Dragon. But I'm not sure... be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tad Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I think that Draw and Duck would understand the correlation between Drinking Beer and muzzle control more than anyone I know!!! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 When you think about it, isn't it amazing that your body can "remember" the correct amount of effort/force to use each time you pick up a beer can? And its weight changes with every drink. What does that have to do with anything? I don't know, but I thought it was interesting. Maybe just go and practice. ...as does the weight of the gun as each round is expended. That is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 When you think about it, isn't it amazing that your body can "remember" the correct amount of effort/force to use each time you pick up a beer can? And its weight changes with every drink. I never thought about it before now, but that really is an interesting thought/realization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildot1 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I got my beer goggles on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 We manage to find our correlations, well... wherever. Very interesting. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob_texas Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I like beer. I like shooting. I drink. Therefore, I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Watching McGivern shoot, you notice that he's falling forward during the string, using his bodyweight to fight recoil. Not really useful in the IPSC arts, but who can argue with .08 splits from a revolver? H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm52 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 The problem with the correlation is that beer tends to cause memory lapse and muscle control (especially how much and how many) where as the repetition and discipline of shooting strengthens memory and muscle response. God is great Beer is good People are krazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 brian-under that analogy, one would be quicker in a long course after they dropped a deuce...but i never noticed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Surfer Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This thread reminds me of "Tombstone"(Doc Holiday bar seen w/Ringo). Anyway I drink to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I have that issue with kegs sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 And it was really weird because instantly the words "there's an analogy to recoil control there" popped into my mind. That IS weird. Okay, seriously, I see the correlation. If you get very grooved-in on the the recoil impulse of a particular gun/cartridge/load combination, that can affect how the gun will track and return if you have to fire a gun with a different recoil impulse. For instance, if I fire a .45 a lot, the next time I go to fire a 9mm fast I'll tend to pull shots low. Why? Because my body is used to timing the gun with a heavier recoil impulse, so I tend to overcompensate for lighter recoil. Lisa Munson said to me once, "Any time you change your load, anytime you change anything, it's going to take you awhile before you get grooved-in on the new recoil impulse." And she was right. Like you talk about in The Book, Brian, every time you went to a lighter bullet weight in .38 Super, there was that unavoidable time period right after the change when your performance dipped, before eventually stabilizing above the previous level. This is one reason I question the people who are constantly switching guns, calibers, or even constantly searching for the "perfect load" that's going to make everything easier, and take their shooting to the next level. Not to say that equipment doesn't play a part, but you don't switch around constantly. Not only are the constant "switchers" looking in the wrong place, they're actually retarding their progress with WAY too many variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I have noticed this too when drinking using glasses and pitchers. While not paying attention someone tops off the glass and the extra force required to lift the glass catches your attention. Of course there isn't an analogous situation in shooting but I just mention it to demonstrate it goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This is why I practice draws with the gun loaded with dummy rounds. That added weight really does make a difference. And reloads too. I burned myself that way once. I got too used to reloads with empties, and well flying mags aren't that funny when they're you flying mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Practice it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I think that Draw and Duck would understand the correlation between Drinking Beer and muzzle control more than anyone I know!!! I ain't much on +1's but this post warrants it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I have noticed this too when drinking using glasses and pitchers. While not paying attention someone tops off the glass and the extra force required to lift the glass catches your attention. Of course there isn't an analogous situation in shooting but I just mention it to demonstrate it goes both ways. I remember years ago when the local Pizza Hut switched from glass pitchers to plastic pitchers. I didn't know it and a pitcher full of beer quite nearly ended up on the table next to us. Whoa there, Betsy. Now that would have been alcohol abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 ...as does the weight of the gun as each round is expended. That is cool. Right - I'd forgotten about that one. I have that issue with kegs sometimes. :roflol: And it was really weird because instantly the words "there's an analogy to recoil control there" popped into my mind. That IS weird. Yea, it was super weird. My next thought after that was "where the hell did that come from"!? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 My next thought after that was "where the hell did that come from"!? Once a shooter, always a shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongo Boy Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) What does that have to do with anything? I don't know, but I thought it was interesting. Maybe just go and practice. Since this a silly post, I'll drift it myself in the opening post. BTW, anyone know who said "go and practice"? (It's fun to say to people, on any topic.) It sounds like Bruce Lee, maybe in Enter the Dragon. But I'm not sure...beI know this wasn't intended to be super serious, but...I have a major problem with the whole 'practice' thing. Don't want to 'jack a thread because I'm really not worthy, but I DO have an opinion. If you believe that there is a lower percentage of folks who enjoy the luxury of good training, good mentorship and guidance than the percentage of folks who shoot yet have none of those things, then I say practice is more likely to do harm than good. I have about 40 years of experience in shooting now, and I have to say I felt I was 'practicing' good things all those years. Only in the last YEAR have I come to the realization the previous 40 were, with few exceptions, filled with poor practice, and largely wasted. Sure, I enjoyed shooting all those years...as much as anyone could enjoy billiards or darts or golf while getting mediocre results. TWO DAYS of good training (and someone yelling in my ear) have made the future look bright, even for a 54-year old. Practice is largely a waste of time for most folks, I think. Highly overrated, and given value all of its own when, all of its own, it has none. Not done yammering yet. Imagine if when you come to the range or walk into the club someone asks, "What are you here to do today?" and you find youself asking yourself what exactly you're there to 'practice' and what results you hope to see. Totally different that running thru 20 mags of ammo with no thought in mind. Back on topic...I put my holster on, check my gun, load a snap cap, slam it in the holster and start to practice my draw. First draw results in forearm pain that feels like tendons are giving out due to the mass of the weapon. It seems to weigh 5 times what it weighed last night, and I have just now ruined an evening of practice routine. The beer can is heavier than normal, but this is not a satisfying excuse. So little is about the gun, so much is about self awareness, and so much more about appreciating ones role as Beginner. Edited July 22, 2009 by Bongo Boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken" C.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 And it was really weird because instantly the words "there's an analogy to recoil control there" popped into my mind. This is one reason I question the people who are constantly switching guns, calibers, or even constantly searching for the "perfect load" that's going to make everything easier, and take their shooting to the next level. Not to say that equipment doesn't play a part, but you don't switch around constantly. Not only are the constant "switchers" looking in the wrong place, they're actually retarding their progress with WAY too many variables. Interesting thread. These correlations can be found in so many areas. I've often thought about how complex driving is, yet our brain allows us to manage all the factors that change constantly with very little effort. Interesting when thinking about Duane's post above. I remember a few years when all others were tinkering with things, current poster included, while Todd Jarrett was just shooting his regular set up. He won a lot those few years! But then I think about the ULTIMATE tinkerer - most know him as TGO. I've roomed with him when he was doing a trigger job the night before a match. Always changing, always hunting for something a tick better. We saw it when he won with the cut up longslide last year. Obviously his ability to "process" all that's going on while shooting and adapting the the "best" scenario clearly demonstrates that the old mantra holds true. It is the Indian, not the arrow. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I have that issue with kegs sometimes. How many times I gotta tell you. Ya don't have to hold them while you drink em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I have that issue with kegs sometimes. How many times I gotta tell you. Ya don't have to hold them while you drink em But...how do you keep them from rolling away ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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