Do you get a “reshoot” for untapped targets?

[Cy Soto]

Neither the shooter nor the RO notices that one of the targets on the COF was not taped. The shooter (under the direction of the RO) begins to navigate the COF and sees the holes on the target. He stops shooting and points them out to the RO. Is this person entitled to a reshoot or are they required to either continue shooting or forfeit their turn?

[shootingchef]

your not going to like the answer.

Only the RO can stop the competitor. As the competitor, keep shooting and sort it out afterwards.

Edited June 30, 2009 by shootingchef

[ima45dv8]

It definitely is not a good idea to stop and point to the target and start a conversation with the RO.

It's not necessarily grounds for a reshoot, but that's best determined after the CoF has been completed and scoring has begun:

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target

for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the purpose

of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same.

[ahudson]

This happend to me a couple of weeks ago at a match. It was the Ro first match as an RO i do belive. I wanted a reshoot but they would not let me of course. They said they could determine my shots. Well he could not but the other want to be RO on the stage could and he listned to them. Then on the next stage it happend twice too two other shooters. They got to reshoot cause they said they could not determine where they shot. I told them i could tell them were they shot. In my opinon they got to reshot cause they whined enough and knew the RO. But hey it don't bother me like it was bohtering them. I was still having fun!

[al503]

I learned the hard way also. Now I only stop if the RO says or if there is a safety related issue.

Just seeing an un-taped targe throws me off and I think it should be grounds for a re-shoot based on the 'targets should be presented uniformly...' but that's another thread.

Edited June 30, 2009 by al503

[ahudson]

I have been finding myself double checking the targets before i clear the range. I'm also double checking the targets before i shot as well.

[FranDoc]

They said they could determine my shots.

ima45dv8 quoted the correct section of the rule book.

Caliber is the easiest way to determine shots made by consecutive competitors. If the unrestored holes were .40 or .45 cal and you were shooting a 9mm (or vice-versa), it IS possible to tell which shots were yours.

If both were of the same caliber, I believe that I might have a "help me understand this" discussion with the match director -- no accusations but, as Sgt Friday used to say, "just the facts".

If this happens again, do not stop shooting. Finish the COF then bring the matter to the RO's attention right after you ULSC and holster.

This is specifically covered in RO training class. I think we had a (inadvertent?) demonstration of it during the range exercise this past weekend.

[Cy Soto]

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets...

I kid you not, I spent no less than 15 or 20 minutes looking through the book trying to find this rule. I must have read over it 2 or 3 times and never saw it.

Thanks for the clarification!

[CHA-LEE]

I am the shooter that Cy is talking about for this situation. I didn't know the actual rule on this situation and when I got to the target that was untapped I just stopped and pointed it out to the RO as I have seen other shooters do this same thing at other local matches. After the stage run others on my squad told me that I should just keep going until I am either done with the COF or if I am told to stop by the RO.

Truthfully through, if the RO would have told me to keep going through the stage after I stopped I would have resumed the stage run and chalked it up as a lesson learned. Either way its a lesson for me. I just hope that my squad mates were not thinking that I was trying to cheat or get an advantage by stopping myself when I seen the untapped target. I thought of the untapped target as no different than steel or activated targets not being reset and I would have to reshoot the stage anyway so why waste the ammo to finish the run.

I think that this situation can be confusing for shooters if the situation is handled inconsistently at the matches. No disrespect intended for the people doing the ROing. I think overall we all try to do our best to follow the rules and still make it a fun experience at the same time. If there are any shooters that attended the match feel that I gained an unfair advantage by stopping myself and getting to reshoot the stage I am more than happy to request that my stage run be thrown out of the overall results for the match.

[Cy Soto]

If there are any shooters that attended the match feel that I gained an unfair advantage by stopping myself and getting to reshoot the stage I am more than happy to request that my stage run be thrown out of the overall results for the match.

Hi CHA-LEE,

The reason I was asking is not because I thought that a reshoot was an unfair advantage. You shoot a million times better than I do and I was not expecting to be anywhere near your score. I only asked the question because I have heard conflicting stories regarding this issue (yes, the shooter gets a reshoot vs. no reshoot given) but no one was able to cite the rule.

I am just trying to learn more about the rules because I am hoping to take the RO course next time it is offered.

[Gary Stevens]

There is nothing in the rule book allowing the shooter to just stop and point at the target. The RO is not allowed to talk to you during the COF, except to give safety warnings, without opening themselves up to coaching or interference claims. We teach them that other than safety warnings, or STOP, the only thing they are allowed to say is "If you are finished, unload and show clear".

I have faced this as RM on several occasions and I know other RM's have also. My normal response is to grant a reshoot, not because the shooter stopped, but because the RO crew failed to assure that the stage had been properly reset.

The shooter should not be penalized because of the failure of the RO crew. With that being said though, the best action is to keep on shooting like nothing happened.

[shred]

Sometimes it's tough for the RO to see the targets (walls, ports, etc), so often at a local match shooters will stop and tell the RO, but a reshoot is in no way guaranteed or even called for.

[Shootingirons45]

Sometimes it's tough for the RO to see the targets (walls, ports, etc), so often at a local match shooters will stop and tell the RO, but a reshoot is in no way guaranteed or even called for.

True enough. This is why we use the team method to score. The scorer starts on the left or right after the range clear commands given. Then he/she will score all the targets in a logical, methodical manner. I've found that this saves a lot of hassles all the way around.

[PINMAN44]

Haha this is crazy. Mad deja vu This was a question I just recently asked when I did just that.

Here is an example of why u shouldn't stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RevYnbUZRE8

[JThompson]

There is nothing in the rule book allowing the shooter to just stop and point at the target. The RO is not allowed to talk to you during the COF, except to give safety warnings, without opening themselves up to coaching or interference claims. We teach them that other than safety warnings, or STOP, the only thing they are allowed to say is "If you are finished, unload and show clear".

I have faced this as RM on several occasions and I know other RM's have also. My normal response is to grant a reshoot, not because the shooter stopped, but because the RO crew failed to assure that the stage had been properly reset.

The shooter should not be penalized because of the failure of the RO crew. With that being said though, the best action is to keep on shooting like nothing happened.

That's interesting Gary, although I think it fair, it's not really within the rules to do so if a valid score can be determined by the ROs.

Edited July 1, 2009 by JThompson

[Ron Ankeny]

If both were of the same caliber, I believe that I might have a "help me understand this" discussion with the match director -- no accusations but, as Sgt Friday used to say, "just the facts".

Given the same caliber, lead vs. jacketed, round nose vs. semi-wadcutter, and of course if all of the hits are of the same value...

[CSEMARTIN]

My normal response is to grant a reshoot, not because the shooter stopped, but because the RO crew failed to assure that the stage had been properly reset.

I think that is the right thing to do. It's one thing if the competitor before was shooting a different caliber, but if that said competitor was shooting the same caliber as the current competitor, it seems kind of silly to get into a pissing match about which grease ring is darker, more perfectly circular, etc.

What happens if the competitor had a really good run and doesn't want to reshoot the stage?

What happens if the competitor tanked the stage, and the RO can clearly delineate which bullet holes belonged to previous shooter vs. the current shooter?

[Nik Habicht]

It's one thing if the competitor before was shooting a different caliber, but if that said competitor was shooting the same caliber as the current competitor, it seems kind of silly to get into a pissing match about which grease ring is darker, more perfectly circular, etc.

Sometimes the shooters make it easy too --- after all, if they're both shooting the same caliber and there's four holes in the A-zone --- that's pretty easy to call....

What happens if the competitor had a really good run and doesn't want to reshoot the stage?

Typically not the competitor's choice --- competitor's are ordered to reshoot a stage. They can refuse, but they'd get a DNF....

What happens if the competitor tanked the stage, and the RO can clearly delineate which bullet holes belonged to previous shooter vs. the current shooter?

It's one of those situations that sometimes occurs in this game --- as the shooter, suck it up and move on; as the RO make sure it doesn't happen again.....

[kevin c]

I tend to check the stage too, especially for those nasty uprange noshoots that might have missed holes in them.

But, really, I don't think I've actually seen extra holes in the target (you're not supposed to be looking for them anyway, right?)/

[Gary Stevens]

The key to me would be if it actually interfered with the shooter. If they shot it normally, with no more than a very slight hesitation, I might look at it differently. However, if the shooter stops, or dramatically slows down, then I'll go the other way.

Agreed that a reshoot is not specifically called for within the rulebook, but to me it falls close enough to REF to normally grant the reshoot.

[Jadeslade]

The key to me would be if it actually interfered with the shooter. If they shot it normally, with no more than a very slight hesitation, I might look at it differently. However, if the shooter stops, or dramatically slows down, then I'll go the other way.

Agreed that a reshoot is not specifically called for within the rulebook, but to me it falls close enough to REF to normally grant the reshoot.

My very first time at Area 2, this happened on my first stage. It was my first area match and the second target in wasn't taped (behind a wall), I hesitated, but kept on going-definitely affects your concentration a little. I had seen a shooter stop and ask for a reshoot at several club matches around my home and at the Georgia State match, but I had read the rules carefully before this match and remembered one of my friends telling me "don't stop yourself". The RO was real good, pointed out the rule to me, etc. Lesson learned, no harm. Oh yeah, the guy ahead of me was SS and I could definitely see those holes.

[JThompson]

The key to me would be if it actually interfered with the shooter. If they shot it normally, with no more than a very slight hesitation, I might look at it differently. However, if the shooter stops, or dramatically slows down, then I'll go the other way.

Agreed that a reshoot is not specifically called for within the rulebook, but to me it falls close enough to REF to normally grant the reshoot.

I hope, if it happens to me, you are the RM.

[Sarge]

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets...

I kid you not, I spent no less than 15 or 20 minutes looking through the book trying to find this rule. I must have read over it 2 or 3 times and never saw it.

Thanks for the clarification!

CY, I Just took RO course this weekend. If you get the chance take an RO class, even if you never RO a single match. It is amazing how things can hide in that little blue book. If you can find a local shooter who just took RO class see if you can snag a copy of the test and look up the answers. Planned or not the 50 question test seems to jump around ALOT in the rule book. By the end of the test you can pretty much quote most of the major stuff and find it pretty easy to find the minor stuff from here on out since by then you will have read the book several times over.

And like pretty much everyone else has said, don't even think about stopping unless you are told to. Happy shooting.

[Lee King]

I learned the hard way, as a shooter, never stop unless you hear "STOP". Argue (scratch that DISCUSS) after ULASC. I had a target I thought activated prematurely. Turns out I hit it with my magazine during a reload. Zero'd the stage with all the FTE's etc.

I RO'd a stage at a sectional. We were short handed. I got distracted with the previous shooter and missed one of the targets I normally pasted. I saw the target over the shooter's shoulder as he was approaching it and saw the two existing hits. I watched him hesitate for a split second, then put 2 more in the A zone. I could call the 2 hits (his were lower in the A zone than previous). Maybe I should've stopped him. The rules supported my action.

Conversely, same sectional two years ago. We had a major change of staff in the middle of a squad (this sectional shooters did not have to paste targets). I was a new RO. There was a low target in a trench about 3 ft from the start position. We missed it during the staff change. The shooter started, hit it with 2 A hits dead center and started cooking through the stage. Before I thought about it I blurted out "STOP!" He gave me one of those "you idiot" looks because they were obvious A hits. His 2nd pass he had a No Shoot and I think a Mike. His 2nd run wasn't nearly as smooth. I know the stop screwed him up. He was not happy about it either.

After that, unless there is a whole bunch of targets not pasted I decided to let the shooter shoot and work it out later. But as a shooter, you have to assume the RO can call the shots. The rules don't necessarily support a reshoot and you don't want your match hanging on YOUR stoppage.

eta - unless you hear "stop"

Edited July 1, 2009 by Lee King

[Shootingirons45]

You've gotta love this thread..all in all it shows me why we don't talk to a shooter after the "stand by" is given. Also, not to be argumentative, I don't think it wise to make a differeation between a local match and a major one. What you do at one, sooner or later you'll do at the other. We have a rule book for a reason. That sounds kinda harsh but we have rules for a reason. Making the rules up as we go as to what we'll allow a reshoot over is stepping on a slippery slope.