Things I noticed at KY Sate 3 Gun Match

[BBoyd]

1. More people then ever are loading thier shotguns weak handed. You used to never see this. I've been practicing this as well, and I am so use to loading strong handed I usually have been screwing it up, but I like the feel and the look, and it does seem faster.

2. With Time plus scoring, more people are shooting 9 mm's.

3. With Time plus scoring, scoring went a lot faster.

4. I personally didn't see any Saiga mag feed shotguns although someone might have used one, I thought this was the next big thing. Maybe due to less open shooters than usual. I think people are going more tactical and less to open type guns.

5. More people using action safe handguns, glocks, springfield xd's, just throw it in the box the safety's already on so you don't need to worry about it.

6. Gary Wellborn is a good stage designer. Nearly all the stages could be shot in several different ways and with the time plus scoring, you could shoot for one A zone shot on many of the targets, something new to think about.

7. Shooting 3 gun matches is so much fun it ought to be illegal.

Random thoughts from a mad man.

[ap3]

7. Shooting 3 gun matches is so much fun it ought to be illegal.

Random thoughts from a mad man.

+1 to that

I noticied:

1. significantly less people are having long gun problems than in years past.

2. with good organization it doesn't take 3 days to shoot a 3gun match.

3. a low cost match with good stages and RO's is as much fun as a big prize table match with medicore stages and RO's.

4. I believe time plus or the horner method is the way to go with scoring.

[Steve J]

5. More people using action safe handguns, glocks, springfield xd's, just throw it in the box the safety's already on so you don't need to worry about it.

At least that's what the propaganda machine would have you believe.

[bigbrowndog]

So technically if my 1911 is still stock!!!!! i can just drop it in the box and move on................Right?????, or if I'm shooting a revo, cause the internal safeties are working and there?????????????

I shoot a Glock, for matches like that, but I do not agree with the policy!!!!!

But back on topic, on the Saiga thing..........................I am trying to be convinced, that they are the next great thing, but I still don't see it??????

trapr

[steel1212]

So technically if my 1911 is still stock!!!!! i can just drop it in the box and move on................Right?????, or if I'm shooting a revo, cause the internal safeties are working and there?????????????

I shoot a Glock, for matches like that, but I do not agree with the policy!!!!!

But back on topic, on the Saiga thing..........................I am trying to be convinced, that they are the next great thing, but I still don't see it??????

trapr

I'm with you trapr, my beavertail safety works so when I let it go my safety IS on but anyway.

I shot my 9mm eagle, pretty much everybody on my squad shoot some type of 1911 or CZ type gun.

[-JQ-]

I noticed that if you have your GF running your camera you'll have lots more comments and video of your bum ...and much less video of your technique and your targets

And she never once asked me why my mags are backwards...she wanted to know why everyone else's were backward

GF also freely offers to help when squad mates would not - applying sunscreen - checking for ticks....and the ever popular pre-stage good luck kiss...no one else even offered...

[Bryan 45]

GF also freely offers to help when squad mates would not - applying sunscreen - checking for ticks....and the ever popular pre-stage good luck kiss...no one else even offered...

Yeah, but what you didn't notice while you were pasting targets is she was also offering that to all of us!!!

My match observations:

1.) As someone else mentioned, if they are spending $100 to shoot a match, they are much more likely to make sure their guns run.

2.) Just because you CAN only engage a target w/ one round, and an "A" hit doesn't produce a time penalty, DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD. Just stick w/ the 2 rounds each target. (Except for the really close rifle. That .308 is still almost $0.60/round.)

Next year, we should try to talk Gary into moving this match to the 1st weekend of May. Trapr, Jamie, The Johnson's, Bob and Cheryl, you all could just stay an extra week in KY after the Blue Ridge.

[philg80]

1.I shoot a Saiga and have for 4 years now. I will say that this is the first match that I have shot where my shotgun did not malfunction one time. People are just now putting the time in to these guns to produce parts that are actually competitive for 3 gun. Unfortunately the stock gun costs 3 times what it did when it was first imported. Until a major shooter wins with one of these guns there use will be sporadic. I saw 2 total at the match mine and a shooter from Ohio's.

2.More people are shooting tactical optics due to the prize table and cost of equipment. At our match the prize table doesnt really matter as much, but it makes great practice for where it does. I am seriously thinking of shooting tac optics for 3 gun and open just for pistol matches for this reason.

3. Time Plus and Horner method both keep you from using dissappearing targets. I personally like them. More challenges to the stages.

4. Match date is critical. WOULD Trapr and others stay in KY for another match within a week? Maybe , but everyone needs a break. It is just best not to have it when another MAJOR match is going on. Did BRM3G hurt our match? Probably a little. Two major matches within the same geographical area within weeks. You have to make a decision if funds are limited. Bianchi Cup the same weekend....of course you are gonna lose some competitors.

5. Not only did I shoot 9mm out of my open gun. It was also minor power factor. Why waste the powder and suffer the recoil when it doesn't make a difference. I honestly used the leftover ammo from the BRM3G I had loaded.

Edited May 30, 2009 by philg80

[bigbrowndog]

I have tried to tie the HPSC to a major match in hopes of getting folks to make it along with going to the major, It doesn't work out, there simply is too much time for people to take off and be in a hotel, with costs increasing everywhere trying to put 2 matches back to back, is a major pain in the A$$.

Next years HPSC will be a stand alone match.

As for the overwhelming prize table for Tac Op, the saddest part is that it tends to steal from the other divisions, in both competitors and prizes, I know of several very good top end shooters, and a host of middle of the road shooters that do not compete in other divisions, or have jumped out of them because of the way MD's are handling the prize distribution. Its very SAD from both veiwpoints, you put in the effort to do well and compete and then do not receive a proportionate reward, or that as a MD you feel you should place the bulk of the money where the bulk of the competitors are, I see both veiwpoints and can empathize with both, but I think a better understanding by MD's could solve the problem easier. It seems that when the end of the match FINALLY arrives the MD and staff are so worn out and relieved, that little concern is given to evenhanded prize distribution.

Some major matches handle the distribution of prizes very fairly, and evenly,........... FB3G, and DPMS come to mind immediately!!!

Trapr

[OPENB]

I shot a Saiga at Ky. I came in 2nd behind Chris Patty, 90%. I'm not sure how much of an advantage the Saiga was as I have not seen a scoring by stage, just overall by division. I know there is no advantage in a 10 shot stage, and a disadvantage in the 11-14 shot stage, until I get my magwell installed that will allow a no-rock reload. 15-20 shots, I feel I have an advantage. Plus my Saiga has been dead on reliable, and cycles super fast. My brother had malf's with his 1100 shooting slugs. After the stage, we looked at the box, and he was shooting 1800fps. slugs! The next round in the mag was jumping past the retaining fingers and getting stuck against the easyloader. Back to standard shot, and the malf went away. Other than that, our stage was pretty malfunction free. I really like the time plus scoring, really sped the match along. It does make a .40 major a disadvantage, but most of us reload anyhow, so minor loads work great. I shoot open 9 major, and the comp likes hot loads, so I made 173pf with the pistol. I even shot Guat. surplus 5.56 that made 3050 fps. when everyone else was 2650-2800 on our squad. The only "why did they do that" I had was the stage with the axe. The pistol box had a diagonal 2x4 in it, preventing the pistol from going in flat. Not that fun, or safe, with a comped and scoped open gun. Anyone have any idea why they did that? I didn't want to get into it while trying to work out the stage, then forgot about it afterwords. Overall a 10++ match!

[philg80]

The only "why did they do that" I had was the stage with the axe. The pistol box had a diagonal 2x4 in it, preventing the pistol from going in flat. Not that fun, or safe, with a comped and scoped open gun. Anyone have any idea why they did that? I didn't want to get into it while trying to work out the stage, then forgot about it afterwords. Overall a 10++ match!

That box was not there until the day before and final walk through. Frank the rangemaster had it installed. It was a rush job with what we had available.

[Chris Conley]

Phillip coming over to Tac Optics. It's about time!!!!

Chris C.

[StealthyBlagga]

3. With Time plus scoring, scoring went a lot faster.

THIS ! Every other scoring system is slower, meaning we have to waste more time recording scores and get less time shooting. Its not broke - please stop trying to fix it.

[Sudden Death]

I shot a Saiga at Ky. I came in 2nd behind Chris Patty, 90%. I'm not sure how much of an advantage the Saiga was as I have not seen a scoring by stage, just overall by division. I know there is no advantage in a 10 shot stage, and a disadvantage in the 11-14 shot stage, until I get my magwell installed that will allow a no-rock reload. 15-20 shots, I feel I have an advantage. Plus my Saiga has been dead on reliable, and cycles super fast. My brother had malf's with his 1100 shooting slugs. After the stage, we looked at the box, and he was shooting 1800fps. slugs! The next round in the mag was jumping past the retaining fingers and getting stuck against the easyloader. Back to standard shot, and the malf went away. Other than that, our stage was pretty malfunction free. I really like the time plus scoring, really sped the match along. It does make a .40 major a disadvantage, but most of us reload anyhow, so minor loads work great. I shoot open 9 major, and the comp likes hot loads, so I made 173pf with the pistol. I even shot Guat. surplus 5.56 that made 3050 fps. when everyone else was 2650-2800 on our squad. The only "why did they do that" I had was the stage with the axe. The pistol box had a diagonal 2x4 in it, preventing the pistol from going in flat. Not that fun, or safe, with a comped and scoped open gun. Anyone have any idea why they did that? I didn't want to get into it while trying to work out the stage, then forgot about it afterwords. Overall a 10++ match!

The reason why they did the box that way was the gentleman that worked that stage that were guest RO's thought if the gun went flat it could get turned in the direction that the shooter and the RO had to go in in order to finish the stage ??

[MikeFoley]

I really enjoyed this match. I learned some valuable lessons.

1. Pre-ban Benelli M1s that have never been detail stripped, cleaned and lubed, will lay down and give up until you do so.

2. Time plus scoring is not kind to me. If I shot 2, I mostly had 2 A hits, if I shot 3, 3 A hits, and if I only shot one, you guessed it, 1 A hit. I am not sure I can ever force myself to speed up enough to get two fast D hits, and that it would be good for me to do so anyway.

3. I am not as convinced that is the weak hand reload as it is that some guys can manipulate 4 shells, some only 3. While I fall in the latter, I make up for it with my handsome good looks.

4. No matter how bad the first four stages go, the rest of the day with your friends is as fun as it has always been.

[Chris Conley]

I really enjoyed this match. I learned some valuable lessons.

1. Pre-ban Benelli M1s that have never been detail stripped, cleaned and lubed, will lay down and give up until you do so.

2. Time plus scoring is not kind to me. If I shot 2, I mostly had 2 A hits, if I shot 3, 3 A hits, and if I only shot one, you guessed it, 1 A hit. I am not sure I can ever force myself to speed up enough to get two fast D hits, and that it would be good for me to do so anyway.

3. I am not as convinced that is the weak hand reload as it is that some guys can manipulate 4 shells, some only 3. While I fall in the latter, I make up for it with my handsome good looks.

4. No matter how bad the first four stages go, the rest of the day with your friends is as fun as it has always been.

Good looks have served you well in the past young Jedi. +100 spending time with friends. It's been awhile for me and the match has made me hungry again.

Chris C.

[Dan Sierpina]

3. I am not as convinced that is the weak hand reload as it is that some guys can manipulate 4 shells, some only 3. While I fall in the latter, I make up for it with my handsome good looks.

Mike,

Keep practicing the weak hand reload. It's definately worth the time to get it down.

[-JQ-]

Mike,

Quit practicing weak hand load...you do NOT need to learn this...

And if you'll be a good student I'll teach you to shoot D's as fast as you can... :devil:

[LChico]

1.I shoot a Saiga and have for 4 years now. I will say that this is the first match that I have shot where my shotgun did not malfunction one time. People are just now putting the time in to these guns to produce parts that are actually competitive for 3 gun. Unfortunately the stock gun costs 3 times what it did when it was first imported. Until a major shooter wins with one of these guns there use will be sporadic. I saw 2 total at the match mine and a shooter from Ohio's.

2.More people are shooting tactical optics due to the prize table and cost of equipment. At our match the prize table doesnt really matter as much, but it makes great practice for where it does. I am seriously thinking of shooting tac optics for 3 gun and open just for pistol matches for this reason.

3. Time Plus and Horner method both keep you from using dissappearing targets. I personally like them. More challenges to the stages.

4. Match date is critical. WOULD Trapr and others stay in KY for another match within a week? Maybe , but everyone needs a break. It is just best not to have it when another MAJOR match is going on. Did BRM3G hurt our match? Probably a little. Two major matches within the same geographical area within weeks. You have to make a decision if funds are limited. Bianchi Cup the same weekend....of course you are gonna lose some competitors.

5. Not only did I shoot 9mm out of my open gun. It was also minor power factor. Why waste the powder and suffer the recoil when it doesn't make a difference. I honestly used the leftover ammo from the BRM3G I had loaded.

Nearly every single Time Plus & Horner Scoring match I have worked (and there have been quite a few of those) has had disappearing targets. Where did you get the idea that those scoring methods prohibited disappearing targets?

Linda Chico (l-2035)

Columbia SC

[RiggerJJ]

{snip} The only "why did they do that" I had was the stage with the axe. The pistol box had a diagonal 2x4 in it, preventing the pistol from going in flat. Not that fun, or safe, with a comped and scoped open gun. Anyone have any idea why they did that? I didn't want to get into it while trying to work out the stage, then forgot about it afterwords. Overall a 10++ match!

try this, works great!;

Here's the same containers with open shotgun (14 round tube!) and open pistol;

NOT THIS OR A FLAT BOX!;

jj

Edited June 1, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[ap3]

1.I shoot a Saiga and have for 4 years now. I will say that this is the first match that I have shot where my shotgun did not malfunction one time. People are just now putting the time in to these guns to produce parts that are actually competitive for 3 gun. Unfortunately the stock gun costs 3 times what it did when it was first imported. Until a major shooter wins with one of these guns there use will be sporadic. I saw 2 total at the match mine and a shooter from Ohio's.

2.More people are shooting tactical optics due to the prize table and cost of equipment. At our match the prize table doesnt really matter as much, but it makes great practice for where it does. I am seriously thinking of shooting tac optics for 3 gun and open just for pistol matches for this reason.

3. Time Plus and Horner method both keep you from using dissappearing targets. I personally like them. More challenges to the stages.

4. Match date is critical. WOULD Trapr and others stay in KY for another match within a week? Maybe , but everyone needs a break. It is just best not to have it when another MAJOR match is going on. Did BRM3G hurt our match? Probably a little. Two major matches within the same geographical area within weeks. You have to make a decision if funds are limited. Bianchi Cup the same weekend....of course you are gonna lose some competitors.

5. Not only did I shoot 9mm out of my open gun. It was also minor power factor. Why waste the powder and suffer the recoil when it doesn't make a difference. I honestly used the leftover ammo from the BRM3G I had loaded.

Nearly every single Time Plus & Horner Scoring match I have worked (and there have been quite a few of those) has had disappearing targets. Where did you get the idea that those scoring methods prohibited disappearing targets?

Linda Chico (l-2035)

Columbia SC

This was told to Gary Welborn(match organizer) by the range master. I think next year he is going to go all outlaw rules.

[-JQ-]

I think next year he is going to go all outlaw rules.

What would this entail? Are there set outlaw rules?

[philg80]

1.I shoot a Saiga and have for 4 years now. I will say that this is the first match that I have shot where my shotgun did not malfunction one time. People are just now putting the time in to these guns to produce parts that are actually competitive for 3 gun. Unfortunately the stock gun costs 3 times what it did when it was first imported. Until a major shooter wins with one of these guns there use will be sporadic. I saw 2 total at the match mine and a shooter from Ohio's.

2.More people are shooting tactical optics due to the prize table and cost of equipment. At our match the prize table doesnt really matter as much, but it makes great practice for where it does. I am seriously thinking of shooting tac optics for 3 gun and open just for pistol matches for this reason.

3. Time Plus and Horner method both keep you from using dissappearing targets. I personally like them. More challenges to the stages.

4. Match date is critical. WOULD Trapr and others stay in KY for another match within a week? Maybe , but everyone needs a break. It is just best not to have it when another MAJOR match is going on. Did BRM3G hurt our match? Probably a little. Two major matches within the same geographical area within weeks. You have to make a decision if funds are limited. Bianchi Cup the same weekend....of course you are gonna lose some competitors.

5. Not only did I shoot 9mm out of my open gun. It was also minor power factor. Why waste the powder and suffer the recoil when it doesn't make a difference. I honestly used the leftover ammo from the BRM3G I had loaded.

Nearly every single Time Plus & Horner Scoring match I have worked (and there have been quite a few of those) has had disappearing targets. Where did you get the idea that those scoring methods prohibited disappearing targets?

Linda Chico (l-2035)

Columbia SC

This was told to Gary Welborn(match organizer) by the range master. I think next year he is going to go all outlaw rules.

From what I understand (very limited) is that if the target is totally disappearing then there is no since to shoot at it for time plus. If you hit it great but that is time added to take the shot. If you don't hit it then it has no penalty. Why waste the shot or time.

[MikeFoley]

I think next year he is going to go all outlaw rules.

What would this entail? Are there set outlaw rules?

There are many forms of rules labeled outlaw. Mostly this refers to scoring sanctioned only by each match, not by a governing body like USPSA. These rules tend to vary based on geography, but tend to have some common threads. There was a cross-sectional group of 3gunners working through the NRA trying to find enough common ground to establish some consistent rules that everyone could live with. There are folks on this forum who were on that team. As last I heard, there were too many hold-outs to get this done. The guys who run these matches, and do so very consistently from year to year see no reason why they should change their match at all.

The best advice I can give you, study the match rules for the specific outlaw match you are attending. Look for differences in scoring and equipment from what you are used to.

I personally know that the non-USPSA matches seem to be the most attended and hard to get in, so these guys are putting on great matches. I like the control that USPSA rules provides since I shoot USPSA pistol matches all year, I don't have to learn anything new. Most USPSA shooters like to stay within those rules. A lot of outlaw only 3Gunners seldom shoot any USPSA matches, which is why you see C class shooters win 3Gun matches from time to time. Nothing wrong with this, just the way it is.

[RiggerJJ]

There was a cross-sectional group of 3gunners working through the NRA trying to find enough common ground to establish some consistent rules that everyone could live with. There are folks on this forum who were on that team. As last I heard, there were too many hold-outs to get this done. The guys who run these matches, and do so very consistently from year to year see no reason why they should change their match at all.

thats not at all true. most of the "outlaw" rule sets have a common beginning, the IMGA rules, then individual matches evolved over the years from there. The NRA 3 Gun comittee members all knew that a true overall common set of rules would be near impossible to agree upon, and so did the NRA. The notion of a common rule set wasn't even realisticaly discussed. The comittee decided to group all common parts of their rules to a "generic" rule set, then add all deviations to an "options" list, giving new MDs the ability to tailor their own unique set of rules.

The main point of NRA involvment is to include our "black" guns under the NRA umbrella as sporting firearms. so it just added several thousand (several hundred thousand?) firearms and lots and lots of firearm owners to the numbers game of politics. As you may have seen, several "outlaw" matches now have the NRA Competition logo and backing. What will you as a competitor see with NRA involvement? little or no change...

Read each matches' set of rules carefully before you attend as there are some differences, and join the NRA.

jj

Edited June 1, 2009 by RiggerJJ