Ron Ankeny Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 To save space I'll just agree with John and Flex. Oh and the remark about changing revolver to production holster rules...now that is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 L10-glock only? thats what GSSF is for.-shoot there than you wont have to worry about holsters,or challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 redmercury2, It does sound silly, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Actually I would like to see the rules for L10 and Production moved closer together. I think Production should be scored major and minor, and I think the magazine pouch rule for Production should be relaxed to the same standards as L10. I also don't have a problem with L10 having the same holster requirements as Production. Revolvers should be held to the same rules as above including holsters and major/minor scoring, and there should be no capacity restrictions other then what the factory produces (5-6-7-8) to a maxi of 10 to equal Production and L10. This would create a more clearly defined break between "Factory Guns, and Race Guns". If someone wants to use race type gear then they should compete in a Race type division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 L-10 is all about freedom. You can currently position your holster and pouches behind your hip IF YOU WANT TO in L-10. I shot my IDPA rig for at least a year before switching to race gear. I hardly jumped from a C shooter to a GM due to that change. AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 It's fairly easy to do sub-second draws out of a Blade-Tech if you practice. It's only about the 3rd or 4th mag that really gets you, and if the course designer is any good, you probably shouldn't be going to the 4th mag. Oh that's funny! I have a hard enough time doing sub-second draws from my LimCat Race holster! Leave L10 alone! How is adding more restrictions to a division going to increase participation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 B.J. I'd like to reply to some of your comments: ... we had more in L-10 than any other division. And guess what most of them are shooting out of? Strong side carry type holsters, behind the centerline. I for one, would support the change. <snip> Despite commen belief, carry gear is not the big of a disadvantage. If it was, than Dave Sevingy would not have finished 11 points behind Todd at FGN shooting minor . It's fairly easy to do sub-second draws out of a Blade-Tech if you practice. .... If you don't think there is any advantage to shooting "carry gear" over race gear, than what is the point to taking the option away from those who do use the race gear? I think it would take L-10 more to where it was originally intented to be, instead of just Limited Lite. Are you sure this is where L-10 was intended to be? I thought is was a division for Limited shooters that need to comply with the 1994 "issue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I'm in the 'leave Lim-10 alone' category. In a year, we'll see what happens to the AWB and can act accordingly (should it go, the residents of the still-oppressed states can have more say). Why change a bunch of stuff now only to change it next year? OK, you can merge the classifications. That would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Dowter...better get the facts straight regarding the possibility of the 1994 Crime Bill (regarding mag cap restrictions) sunsetting...... Those of us in Calif. Mass, N.Y. and N.J. will NEVER see the sunset. Keep this in mind when you (and others) decide to vanquish L10 Division. L10 as single stack only.....NEVER. I refuse to selectively exclude other designs of guns that come from the FACTORY with 10 round only mags. Want a SS only deal...Join the 1911 Society. Why oh Why can't we EVER seem to be able to leave well enough alone? L10 goes by the wayside....so do I . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Just a couple of suggestions from the old country (I voted for the USPSA system BTW): - Integrate Lim 10 in IPSC. There are many guns out there that were constructed with a limited capacity (12 or 14 rounds, like Brownings or Berettas in .40). They need a place too, I think. It also makes choosing a gun easier. You don't have to spend big bucks on mags etc. -Limited instead of standard. Get rid of the box. -Revolver is pretty much perfect under IPSC rules I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Leave it the way it is. I have not seen any suggestions that IMHO would help the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.J. Norris Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Nolan, I meant compared to race holsters. Its never easy per se, to do sub-second draws. How about Matt Burkett doing sub .80 draws out of a Ky-Tac? Bucky, I do believe there is some advantage to shooting race gear over carry gear. But, I don't think its the make or break factor. As I said before, if it was, Dave wouldn't have finished 11 points behind Todd at FGN. I believe (just MHO) that L-10 was created for the single stacks and other major-caliber factory pistols to play, that may not have to mags/aftermarket support to compete in Limited. If you took race gear out of it, I think it would take away some of the moneybagging from the B and A class Limited shooters who shoot 3 matches a year in L-10, just to win awards. Anybody who truely loves to shoot L-10, won't care what the holster rules are, only that they are shooting the best that they can on that day. Just my thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k tyler Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Ok Guys I just had to sound off on this. I have shot a single stack for all but about 3 months of my 10 years of USPSA. I made master with one and continue to win matchs inspite of my little 10 round gun. I loved it when we had Open and Limited only! But the stage design has changed since then. The stages today rarely have much room for reloading before an engagement area and are much higher in round count. If the stage designers are good and give at least 3 steps before any shooting can be done, its a pretty even playing field. As for the holster stuff, I recently went away from the race holsters and now use a Bladetech with my Thoroughbred Single stack. My draw times are .85 average and the security is MUCH better. The one big negative with 5 divisions is the cost to put on matches. Now with 5 divisions clubs have to buy 80+ trophes to cover everyone. Good lord lets just hand out trophes at the begining of the match with your shooters packet. I like it the way it is, but if it went back to Open and Limited.....it wouldn't hurt my feelings as long as the stage designs made the course of fire fair to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Hi guys, At the risk of getting my head bitten off, is there any good reason why Limited and Limited 10 shouldn't be combined into a single division? The only difference between the two divisions is the number of rounds loaded into magazines but, considering that only 8 shots can be available from each shooting position (under USPSA rules), surely the L10 guys are not significantly disadvantaged? Sure, in a 32 round long course, the Limited guy might only need 2 magazines and 1 reload, while the L10 guy needs 4 magazines and 3 reloads, but is that sufficient to justify treating them as separate divisions? And wouldn't the L10 guys like to see how they compare against the Limited guys on the same score sheet? This could be easily accomplished with an "L10" tag for the guys who qualify. For example, I shoot a Glock 21 (13+1 rounds) in Production Division against everybody else who have guns with up to a 6 round capacity advantage, so this means I must reload even on most medium (e.g. 16 round) courses, but I don't feel disadvantaged by my gun. Remember I have no say in the matter, as it's a uniquely USPSA issue, but I'm genuinely curious. And please don't make me join the IPSC Witness Protection Program Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Vince et al, As KTyler said (more or less) it is about course design. If you design a course such that L10 shooters always can reload during movement then there really isn't much of a disadvantage. However, we are currently in an era of course design where there are target arrays which require but a single step, an about-face, change of ports with hardly a step taken, etc. before engagement of the next array. Much the same thing can be said for Revolver. If all the reloads are done during movement there isn't much difference between Revolver and the other divisions...provided you practice reloads enough. Once again it boils down to course design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Vince suggestion is a popular one...too bad it doesn't hold water. It's simple science. It's always the faster way around a course of fire if you don't need to reload as much. I'm certain that I don't need to explain the merits behind the theory that running "full steam ahead" is always quicker than reloading and moving at the same time. To suggest otherwise is being less than honest with yourself. As far as the revolver example is concerned...there is only one shooter in the world that can reload a wheelgun as fast as a bottom feeder. Course design means nothing in the revolver sample, it's the design of the gun. If hi-cap magazines didn't provide at least one cintilla of an advantage...no one would use them. Stop trying to mask that fact. Secondly, you can not control course design around the nation. USPSA has been hesitant to apply guidelines to COF design for fear that the conditions would stifle creativity. You can use COF examples as a way to "explain away" the need to combine Limited and L10 divisions all you want but the fact of the matter is you can't police every COF designed and implemented in USPSA to assure compliance. In essence, this is another "smoke and mirrors" example. L10 was designed for those of us that live in 10 round only States. It's main purpose is for members/competitors of USPSA in those States to be able to purchase "legally obtainable" equipment and compete without handicap. USPSA has seen fit to provide division status for L10. After the divisions success, how can anyone suggest that the divisional status be replaced by combining the divisions of Limited and L10 and creating the "redheaded step child" category of L10? Judging from the responses found here and on other forums...the people don't buy the "combination" argument. Clubs can best determine their financial needs/requirements as far as awards go. If the participation doesn't warrant the award...don't give it out. Crying wolf regarding award isn't going to win my support for giving up my favorite division anytime soon. Nice try....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Chuck, Sorry I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Vince: You asked didn't you? Sorry you don't like the straightforward answer but winning your support wasn't my goal here, explaining clearly what I believe the answer to be was the goal. I'm not about to mince words in regards to a subject that I hold dear...and consider critical to the members of 10 round only States. Nothing personal but after a while you get a bit "ragged about the edges" when the division that was created for valid reasons is attacked over and over again by people that don't have the problems that USPSA members that live in NY, Calif, Mass and N.J. do. Lets not lose sight of why L10 was created in the first place. For the sake of those whom need it...leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Chuck, I'm not being "being less than honest" with myself, I'm not "trying to mask any fact", I don't buy or sell "smoke and mirrors" and I certainly wasn't "crying wolf regarding award". And I've never attacked the division, nor did I attack you for that matter. I just asked a simple question. I also made it perfectly clear that I have no influence on the subject, which is entirely the domain of the USPSA, and I have absolutely nothing to win or lose, whether things change or whether they stay the same. If you have strong feelings on the matter, fine, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't take it out on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 It's nothing personal Vince...you ought to know that by now. Not all the extra "comments" were sent in your direction...smoke and mirrors excuses come from considerably different directions. Besides, I was kind compared to the others I've seen you deal with. I'm offering a formal apology to you if I made my response sound as if I was indicting you for things" you say" you didn't speak or mean. I refuse to apologise for the content of my post. I said what I meant and I meant what I said in regards to why L10 was created and why it should remain untouched. The issue is getting old and for the life of me I can't see why people in certain circles CONTINUE to push for L10's demise as a division. Want a real fight, try cornering a revolver division shooter using some of the same logic I've read in this thread regarding the elimination of their division. Like cornered rats I'll tell ya..... Again, nothing personal ...question asked...question answered, in as blunt of a fashion as possible I might add...to eliminate ALL confusion. Sometimes the truth is ugly and the person speaking it is seen in a less than favorable light. 70 plus percent of this "non-scientific" poll say leave things as they are...ought to tell us something shouldn't it ? Contact me offline if you wish to discuss and/or scold me further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Chuck, Thanks for clarifying matters - I can once again feel the love - so no hard feelings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 Vince, I agree with Chuck on this one. There is a pretty big difference between moving among shooting positions while reloading and not reloading. I feel that it is significant enough to justify the existance of both limited and limited 10. I have been quite vocal about the fact that I got involved in USPSA because of the existance of limited 10. If this division had not been available to shoot in at the time, I probably would have tried out the local northern california IDPA matches instead. I have been a member of our local USPSA club for about 6 months. This club is the only one in this area that still offers the USPSA safe handgun competitor course and all of the new shooters that I have seen come through this course have started in either production or limited 10. Take away limited 10 and you will negatively effect the number of new shooters getting involved in USPSA. I, frankly, am quite tired of defending this position on and off this forum. seems like everytime one thread dies out someone else starts up another about killing limited 10. If the major issue here is one of money to award trophies for 5 different divisions then I don't think we are doing justice to the intent of the sport. I shoot in USPSA because I enjoy it, not because I might receive a prize for achievement sometime down the road. Larry Cazes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 I run matches up in the Seattle area. Since L-10 was introduced, it has steadily grown in popularity, at least at our matches. Our typical shooter breakdown is 1/3 limited, 1/3 limited 10, and 1/3 open + production + revolver. I am inclined to believe that the membership votes with its feet, and they like L-10. If there is a division that needs scrutiny, I would say it is revolver. Just going off the number of people who shoot it in my area, it does not have much support. DC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 If the Sarah/Hillary Law does sunset next year, and quality hi-cap mags are just $30 again, I'd like to see L-10 go away. You really only need 2 hi-caps anyway, if they work in the gun. Sixty bucks. Revolver is really stretching the idea of "allow you to be competitive" in a division. Gets really close to creating a Derringer division. If a gun can't complete the requirements of a stage in a timely manner, maybe it should have its own matches. Like side matches while they score the USPSA match. IMHO that would bring out 5-10 times more revolvers than is now the case. Just my 1/2 cents worth. I respect the majority's opinion. dvc - eric - a28026 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 caspian28r, You forget that MOST who shoot L-10 do so with a single stack and those sissy hi-caps won’t fit. THANK GOD! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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