Fullauto_Shooter Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 With the on-going primer shortage, which doesn't seem to be getting any better, I wonder if the USPSA leadership has given any thought to sanctioning a Provisional Rimfire Division?? Yep, I know - .22 Rimfire certainly doesn't meet the "Power" requirement in the "DVC" triad, but it seems many folks may soon be out of options. Factory ammo is too expensive for most to buy and it seems better to shoot .22 until this current crisis passes than not to shoot at all. Think it'd be smart to at least get the initial discussions underway instead of waiting until we're REALLY hurting. Just throwing it out there to see what the collective BEnoverse thinks. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 This is what people thought not too long ago... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67486 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 This is what people thought not too long ago...http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67486 Thanks, but this thread was from 9 months ago when components were expensive, but very much obtainable. Now that they are mostly unobtainable, I think this topic deserves more discussion. I would never consider this to be an option if I were able to find reloading components (specifically primers). But now, with many folks unable to find new stocks and current stocks running low - it might merit consideration. If someone has a better alternative, I'd like to hear it. Maybe someone here should start up a primer manufacturing operation - the demand certainly exists and, if quality were good, they could become a millionaire very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 The economy is always in some kind of cycle, more of the same thing here... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58470 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 This is what people thought not too long ago...http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67486 Thanks, but this thread was from 9 months ago when components were expensive, but very much obtainable. Now that they are mostly unobtainable, I think this topic deserves more discussion. I would never consider this to be an option if I were able to find reloading components (specifically primers). But now, with many folks unable to find new stocks and current stocks running low - it might merit consideration. If someone has a better alternative, I'd like to hear it. Maybe someone here should start up a primer manufacturing operation - the demand certainly exists and, if quality were good, they could become a millionaire very quickly. Until the major players got caught up from the hoarders and put them out of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 OK - guess no one thinks this topic deserves to be discussed (yet). We'll give it another 6-12 months and then see where we stand. Hope we're all primer healthy by then, but time will tell. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIO Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I hate to say it but I feel we are getting to the "Put away what you can, soak the guns in grease, and pray". Basically we are f'd by the new America. First it will be rimfire, then Airsoft, then laser tag. I spent most of my day contacting my Senators and reps regarding the new DOD restrictions on rifle brass then I caught the front page of FOX and CNN staging the announcment of the new AWB that is giong to be blamed on the Mexican drug violence... Tea party anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 That will be enough Politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I think the short answer is NO. I still haven't found all my missing body parts from my venture into creating Single Stack. Now on a different path, the 22 is just peachy for the Steel Challenge side of USPSA. I know my home club is looking at affiliating with SC just for that particular feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Now on a different path, the 22 is just peachy for the Steel Challenge side of USPSA. I know my home club is looking at affiliating with SC just for that particular feature. Yep... that's why we affiliated with SC. Get some of the .22 shooters, Cowboy shooters, ect. to come out. I get the feeling .22 is going to be a big division this year. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr4406pak Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I can see nothing wrong with a provisional rimfire division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I can see nothing wrong with a provisional rimfire division. It would give me a great reason to buy a new pistol!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I shot my first SCSA match last month and enjoy the heck out of it. So much so that I bought a .22 MkIII and just ordered a scope for it. But I have ZERO interest in trying to run and gun with it. The fun of USPSA is the lure of DVC. I'd hate to try and do a fast mag change with them little mags anyhow. I'd probably bend one in half! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Gary's pleasure cruise putting forth Single Stack class ( ) was based on guns and ammo that were already conforming with the current rules. If you want a PRF division, you first have to get this rule changed: 5.1.2 The minimum cartridge case dimension for handguns to be used in USPSA matches is 9x19 mm. The minimum bullet diameter is 9 mm (.354 inches). Contact your area coordinator and try and get it on the agenda. Without that, everything else is moot (but I am sure not mute). Later, Chuck My own $0.02: nope... DVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I can see nothing wrong with a provisional rimfire division. I can --- after all, there goes the needs based argument (why do you need a center fire handgun, when you can play the game with .22s?). Then there's "Steel must fall to score," steel-activated movers, and clearing jams constantly from less than totally reliable .22 ammo..... Thanks, but no thanks for USPSA...... For Steel Challenge or for practice, my .22s are seeing more daylight..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 I can see nothing wrong with a provisional rimfire division. I can --- after all, there goes the needs based argument (why do you need a center fire handgun, when you can play the game with .22s?). Then there's "Steel must fall to score," steel-activated movers, and clearing jams constantly from less than totally reliable .22 ammo..... Thanks, but no thanks for USPSA...... For Steel Challenge or for practice, my .22s are seeing more daylight..... This ain't about "wanting" .22 for USPSA - it's about possibly "needing" .22 for USPSA. Maybe some of you out there have 100K primers, case upon case of bullets, and mountains of powder but many of us don't. I don't like the idea of having to go to .22 any more than anyone else, but the reality is we may be heading in that direction out of necessity rather than desire. It may come to the point, rather quickly, where it's either explore this alternative or see clubs start to fail for lack of shooters. If your reloading components run out, are you gonna pay $15 or more per 50 for your favorite ammo? That would be close to $50 per match - just in ammo. If you bring your kid to shoot (as I do), we're looking at close to $100 per match in ammo costs. Compare this to less than $10 for .22 ammo. Unless the USPSA leadership has a crystal ball and can tell with complete certainity that this current component crisis will pass, it may be wise to start thinking about this now rather than wait until things get so bad that the masses stop coming. All I'm asking for is an open mind and a little bit of foresight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Sorry --- from my perspective --- Centerfire ammo is one of the core fundamentals that makes USPSA what it is. I'm not willing to disembowel the game to meet what may be a short-term supply crisis.... Want an action .22 game? Get with your local club and see if you can make that work --- perhaps the shooters in your area will vote with their wallets to make that a success, perhaps not. Money tight? I can totally relate --- prior to entering nursing school in 2007, I shot 4-6 local matches monthly, 5-6 majors and the Nationals annually, dabbled in 3-gun/rifle/shotgun matches; since 2007, I'm pretty much shooting two local matches in most, but not all months.... Our numbers are up this year --- I'm not seeing the gloom and doom you're predicting. And I'm pretty sure that with one or two exceptions, no one has a huge reservoir of components sitting around.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Our numbers are up this year --- I'm not seeing the gloom and doom you're predicting. And I'm pretty sure that with one or two exceptions, no one has a huge reservoir of components sitting around.... Nik, I hope you're right and that this current shortage resolves itself; just hope it happens before we begin to lose too many shooters. As I noted earlier, my main concern is that the USPSA leadership not wait until things are REALLY bad before they address this problem - better to be proactive rather than reactive. Cheers, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 D., V., and C. Vis has already taken too big of a hit over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Our numbers are up this year --- I'm not seeing the gloom and doom you're predicting. And I'm pretty sure that with one or two exceptions, no one has a huge reservoir of components sitting around.... Nik, I hope you're right and that this current shortage resolves itself; just hope it happens before we begin to lose too many shooters. As I noted earlier, my main concern is that the USPSA leadership not wait until things are REALLY bad before they address this problem - better to be proactive rather than reactive. Cheers, Doug There are much better ways for USPSA to assist in this issue than a provisional .22 division. Bulk buys by the organisation of primers direct from the manufacturers comes to mind. These could then be sold to members through a contract with one or more of the retailers already setup to ship hazardous materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Why not skip the rim-fire phase and move straight to airsoft? Plastic pellets and gas are a lot cheaper than .22 ammo. </sarcasm> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Our numbers are up this year --- I'm not seeing the gloom and doom you're predicting. And I'm pretty sure that with one or two exceptions, no one has a huge reservoir of components sitting around.... Nik, I hope you're right and that this current shortage resolves itself; just hope it happens before we begin to lose too many shooters. As I noted earlier, my main concern is that the USPSA leadership not wait until things are REALLY bad before they address this problem - better to be proactive rather than reactive. Cheers, Doug There are much better ways for USPSA to assist in this issue than a provisional .22 division. Bulk buys by the organisation of primers direct from the manufacturers comes to mind. These could then be sold to members through a contract with one or more of the retailers already setup to ship hazardous materials. Great idea, but do you think USPSA is even remotely interested in serving as middleman for a bulk primer buy? My guess is they aren't - and for good reason. The few bulk buys I've ever participated in were huge headaches for the guys putting it together. If USPSA is willing to take this on, put my name at the top of the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Our numbers are up this year --- I'm not seeing the gloom and doom you're predicting. And I'm pretty sure that with one or two exceptions, no one has a huge reservoir of components sitting around.... Nik, I hope you're right and that this current shortage resolves itself; just hope it happens before we begin to lose too many shooters. As I noted earlier, my main concern is that the USPSA leadership not wait until things are REALLY bad before they address this problem - better to be proactive rather than reactive. Cheers, Doug There are much better ways for USPSA to assist in this issue than a provisional .22 division. Bulk buys by the organisation of primers direct from the manufacturers comes to mind. These could then be sold to members through a contract with one or more of the retailers already setup to ship hazardous materials. Great idea, but do you think USPSA is even remotely interested in serving as middleman for a bulk primer buy? My guess is they aren't - and for good reason. The few bulk buys I've ever participated in were huge headaches for the guys putting it together. If USPSA is willing to take this on, put my name at the top of the list. Don't know if they would be interested. It's an option, though. Hmm...My experience with bulk buys is much better than yours. I rarely buy any components today by myself. We organise bulk buys all the time in my area with realtively little hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Getting back to the original question, I received a call from one of my constituent's today about the idea of a rimfire division. While I think it is much like spitting into the wind, the results won't be pretty, let's explore the idea a bit. Some initial stumbling blocks I see: 1. Having went through the new division battle for Single Stack, I can assure you there will be screams, tears, and immediate resistance to the idea. 2. Assuming, just for fun and giggles, that it was adopted, how would it work? Steel is an intricate part of our sport and presents a problem for rimfire. Would it just be called as hit, how would it work? 3. I guess the rimfire division would shoot with all other divisions at the same time on the same stages. Do we just go with paper? 4. Does this open the door for "someone" to say you don't need centerfire guns anymore because you have shown and sanctioned rimfire as sufficient to compete with? Getting the camels nose out of the tent is a lot harder than it seems. Not being political, but the saying of "stroke of the pen-law of the land" is true. 5. Would it actually increase membership, or just further dilute the pool of participants? 6. How would it figure into our current classification system? Just a few thoughts off the top of my head that should be fleshed out now. I believe this ammo price, component shortage issue will pass in due time. It will be painful in the short run, but if things settle down in a small area near Virginia and Maryland, panic should subside and things will return to some state of normalcy, whatever that might be. Much like gasoline, will it fall to where it was, probably not. However, it should be subtantially better than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 With the on-going primer shortage, which doesn't seem to be getting any better, I wonder if the USPSA leadership has given any thought to sanctioning a Provisional Rimfire Division?? Yep, I know - .22 Rimfire certainly doesn't meet the "Power" requirement in the "DVC" triad, but it seems many folks may soon be out of options. Factory ammo is too expensive for most to buy and it seems better to shoot .22 until this current crisis passes than not to shoot at all. Think it'd be smart to at least get the initial discussions underway instead of waiting until we're REALLY hurting. Just throwing it out there to see what the collective BEnoverse thinks. Doug From previous discussions it seems the pros are willing to settle for incorporation at the club level, while the cons are at least willing to tolerate it at the club level. Why would it have to be sanctioned nationally? Set it up at your local club/clubs and have at it. I'd set it up as a separate match and score it so, so as not to dilute the full power scores. Use minor scoring of course, and I'm sure the "tool guys" at your club can figure out the steel (our forward-falling poppers will fall with good .22 hits). If this is what needs to be done to weather the component shortage storm, it's probably better done at the club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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