MattBurkett Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I am looking at assisting with a new match next year and we have the options of what kind of match to make it. Personally I would like to see a 3gun with a rifle, pistol, and long range rifle match. This will be a tactical type match with handgun out to 30-50 max, rifle out to approx 400, and LRR out to 1000 with movers at 500 yards. Do you think these would combine well? Makes more sense to me than standard 3gun match as a tac rifle and pistol can do pretty much everything a shotgun does. BTW the LRR would be on all reactive steel so the time it takes to score the stages would be shorter than either handgun and rifle. Idea's? Suggestions? Do you think a match like that would draw a couple of hundred people? How about with a huge prize table and media coverage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Matt, At least three forum members (me, Bonedaddy, Bret Heidkamp) just finished a match almost exactly like the one you describe. It was awesome, at least for me. Sam and I finished 7th, and I still got more off the prize table than my entry fee. Sam and Bret's opinion may differ, but I'll be back. Count me in if you can set up that is similar. Shooting beyond 300 is so cool, and requires more thought than close in hosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Hi Matt, It sounds like fun. I am a little paranoid using my EO tech or iron sites at that kind of yardage but no guts no glory. Besides it will give me something new to work on. Are you planning on doing limited, open and he-man divisions? Please keep us filled in on the details. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted August 28, 2003 Author Share Posted August 28, 2003 I am not sure about the divisions yet. Maybe Open/SOF/HeMan. Now wouldn't that be interesting! Hey guys, if you vote, please tell me why you wouldn't go or you would prefer the other one. Consider this a marketing survey and help me develop this match for the best! Thanks for the help and the votes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I voted for the side match option mainly because I have no interest in that part of the match. My eyesight just isn't that great at distance even with prescription glasses so I like the short and medium range courses just fine but the long range stuff leaves me out. I completely support those who do want to shoot the far stuff though and think they should have the option to exercise those skills. Class wise I like the choices you mentioned. What we really need is a soviet block class. I can just see a whole squad of guys shooting AK's, Saiga shotguns, and CZ52 pistols! The best part is you could buy all three guns for under $600 total! -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I would have to say "prefer a standard 3-gun match" - for the longer range stuff I feel the Highpower, Long Range, and Sniper-type matches do very well. They're really such different animals than 3-gun that putting them together doesn't fit well in my opinion. If 3-gun is a way to practice your shooting skill set in a slightly more realistic way (than just target shooting, for example), the sniper matches would be its long range counterpart. The only problem with putting them both together is that it takes a completely different gear and mindset setup to do sniper-type shooting than 3-gun type shooting - I just don't see how you could seamlessly combine the two. As long as I'm sharing my opinions - it's good to see the emergence of a "he-man" or "iron-man" class in 3-gun. For those of us that shoot these matches as a way to hone our skills (while still in full realization that this is only a game), it lets us compete more against like-minded individuals, instead of trying to keep up with the latest in the equipment and light-load races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 One thing I think is lacking in 3 gun (unless you count the team challenge) is wing shooting. I would not mind see some sporting clays style action folded into 3 gunning. Instead of just testing how fast we can load a shotgun, a stage that included 25 rounds of flying clay a la 5 stand would be a wlecome addition in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Long range shooting is such a different bird, I would not attend if it was part of the regular match. I think it would limited the pool of shooters you have to draw from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I voted, "prefer a standard 3-gun match" . I don't see me fighting the logistics of competiting at 1,000 yards. (maybe the guys out West will have a different perspective?) And, I have a shotgun that is fun to play with. MB, the current pool of 3-gun shooters is kinda small. And, not all of those can travel to evey match. New gear makes that tougher. I would think you would have to expand the pool of 3-gunners to pull from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Why make it a 3 gun match? Super size it to a 4 gun match. Biggest drawback is the flying with 4 guns and enough ammo for a match. Sounds like fun but I don't think you'll see the support from the regular 3 gunners for the LR stuff and the LR guys wouldn't be real happy running and gunning. I like the idea but hell I'll shoot anything that goes bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 Why make it a 3 gun match? Super size it to a 4 gun match. Biggest drawback is the flying with 4 guns and enough ammo for a match. Sounds like fun but I don't think you'll see the support from the regular 3 gunners for the LR stuff and the LR guys wouldn't be real happy running and gunning. I like the idea but hell I'll shoot anything that goes bang. This was my idea when I read the topic header and first message! I do think having the long range rifle as a side match has a lot of merit too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve H Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Matt, I would love a match like that, but, like some have already said, it would be tough for those flying. I kind of agree with Kelly N. I would love to see something different for the shotgun (yes, I suck with the shotgun!). But I do like the idea of the LRR rifle class. Good luck, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 Matt, I voted "yes" I would attend. It sounds like fun to me. However, I'm not sure how popular or universal that answer would be. As some have pointed out, 1000 yd. shooting is pretty specialized and I don't know how many people are equipped for it. I also agree with Kelly N, there isn't enough innovation in the shotgun stages. Aerial targets would be great. We had a couple in last year's Texas State 3-Gun. Shotgun stages could really use more innovative/interesting targets. Hope to see you at the TS3G this year. We promise some interesting shotgun targets. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 I'm with Loves2shoot. The farthest I can practice is 100 yards, slow fire, at bullseye paper targets. That's just not going to translate well past about 300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 I don't care where you live, finding a 1000 yard range to pratice on is exceedingly difficult for most people. At 95% of all the ranges I've been to, 200 yards is "far." In the Northwest, I don't know of a 1000 yard range anywhere. The only option is to find BLM land to set up on - and even that ain't easy. I think it's an awesome idea, but I think it will dramatically limit your pool of available shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted August 29, 2003 Share Posted August 29, 2003 One thing I think is lacking in 3 gun (unless you count the team challenge) is wing shooting. I would not mind see some sporting clays style action folded into 3 gunning. Instead of just testing how fast we can load a shotgun, a stage that included 25 rounds of flying clay a la 5 stand would be a wlecome addition in my opinion. The recent DPMS 3-gun match in MN had a shotgun stage like this. I believe it would be similar to sporting clays, but don't know any of the particulars of that sport, so I can't say for sure. Shooters fired from four different positions. One clay was launched from a tower crossing in front of the shooter. At the shot, three more clays were launched simultaneously. Shooters were not limited to rounds fired. The stage required 32 rounds (4 clays x 4 stations x 2 runs per station), but most of us fired over 50 round, making up misses before the targets hit the ground. I think the high score on that stage was 26 birds broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paraman1 Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Not having shot much 3-gun here are some thoughts . Shooting an AR style rifle past 300 yards is a joke , the rifle was not meant for those kinds of distances . I know some of you can do it and quite well I might add but 600 yards on anything smaller than 6 feet by 6 feet is zero fun with an AR . For the precision rifle portion 300-600 yards of varmint sized targets (ala mini-poppers or steel plates) would bring out those of us who own some sort of varmint rifle or a varmint style AR with a scope . If this is supposed to be a tactical style match lets look at how weapons are used in combat and try to develop challenges similar to that . If this is for fun lets look at house clearing style stages (Hosers) and 75 yard assault courses with 200 yard unsupported rifle shots at the end . I agree with most that the rifle thing should be a side match as not everyone has the equipment to shoot at those ranges and a thousand yards is a very elite club of operators with extremely specialized equipment and access to training that the average Joe does not . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Hi Matt, I am all for the long range thing, but 1000 yards is asking a lot of the regular 3Gun shooter. Properly geared & practiced folks would have no trouble, but they are a rarer bird than you might think. IMHO, anything longer than 5-600 yards is going to reduce the number of shooters because of the "gear up" needed for real LRR. At 5-600 yards you will be right in line with the MOR thing USPSA has been doing lately, and folks are definitely getting geared up for that level of rifle shooting. One of my favorite parts of the 4 gun matches I have attended in the past has been the "Accuracy Rifle" events. The ones I participated in have typically consisted of 1 to 1.5 MOA shots at 100 to 200 yards in fixed time limits with penalties assessed for any lack of accuracy. One idea I have been toying with lately for an Accuracy Rifle stage would to use MGM "Precision Rifle Targets" at 100-200 yards and requiring the shooter to open and close both doors with the face of the main target designated as a No Shoot just to be cruel. An Accuracy based main match stage or sidematch is less difficult to gear up for than a LRR thing because you are not excluding what a lot of shooters already have for hunting/varminting and other uses. It is also less intimidating to hear that an upper A shot at 100 yards is required as opposed to a 12" plate @ 800-1000 yards when the wind is really blowing. Ironically, I have been pitching a multi-gun specialty match to the powers that be at my local club that would exclude pistols. The match would test Tactical Rifle, Accuracy Rifle and Shotgun skills. All that said, I voted for the standard 3gun match with some sort of rifle side match. That format worked well up at Area 1 this year. The side match consisted of 5 plates at 400-600 yards and a sixty second time limit. 25 shooters out of the 100 in the main match competed with everything from iron sighted AR's to 300 winmags with optics that cost more than my yearly house taxes (BTW, I got third overall with a $100 scope, and a $300 former hunting rifle with a muzzle brake on it). I also agree that we don't shoot at enough flying clays with shotguns. The more clay launching poppers the better in my book. I love missing them shot after shot, all the way to the ground and then doing extra re-loads to repeat the process on the next clay popping popper Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I'm with Loves2shoot. The farthest I can practice is 100 yards, slow fire, at bullseye paper targets. That's just not going to translate well past about 300. Same where I'm at but can shoot only out to 200yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 While I'd love to try the LONG range rifle, most of us normal shooters don't have access to the ranges needed for parcaticing 1000 yd shots. My last home club only went to 600 yds, and my current club only 100 yds! Plus, in addition to the range, it takes SERIOUS equipment and lots of practice to shoot 600 yd plus shots. (Heck, for most 200 yd plus is beyond their comfort level!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I would consider the match, if the Lr stuff was seperate. I have access to over a 1,000 yds, but quit the long stuff to try to improve the IPSC stuff. The gear for a rifle capable of shooting effectively at that range is very expensive. I think it would be very difficult for a limited shooter to compete. I just recently purchased my full 3 gun setup so I know I am not ready to go for another LD rifle. I several weeks of vacation to plan for next year and would like to attend at least one major 3gun match. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 If you want to wing shoot go to a skeet match or come to Texas and really test your skills on Doves flying 40 mph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted September 10, 2003 Author Share Posted September 10, 2003 Well the most scary part seems to be people not wanting to shoot over 600 yards. Okay so we limit the LRR to 600 and since cost is a factor let you shoot whatever you want. IE. AR with 77 grainers. BTW the LRR would be shot from 35 feet at a 60? angle. to 600. Now are the 77's going to knock a larue down at 500? I don't know, but, I do know that you can hit it with them. Most likely the stages for LRR will be limited round count par time stages factored off the number of hits you get. That way there will be no particular advantage to an auto vs. a bolt rifle. To keep things simple, it will be a three day match shooting one gun per day. There maybe some multi-gun stages, were just not sure yet. Another interesting addition that we have just come up with is that there will be two classes. Open (IPSC rules) and Tactical (similar to SOF). Open class can shoot the stages however they think is advantageous. Tactical needs to be just that. There will even be different stage requirements between the two divisions. For tac there will be equipment tests etc to see if your stuff is actually going to stay on. It will be scored as two separate matches. This allows us the shooters from IPSC and the tactical community to play together. We are looking at 5 stages for handgun, 5 stages for rifle, and 10 stages for LRR. To keep things even, handgun and rifle stages will be worth 100 points and LRR stages will be worth 50. That way there is no advantage between any of the guns. If your good with a pistol and suck with an LRR you still have a chance against a guy that is good with an LRR and sucks with a pistol. BTW it already is shaping up to have a hell of a prize table and media coverage. Thoughts on this approach are most welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rifleguy Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Matt, do you have approximate dates for this yet? And what is the location? Given the plethora of matches already taking place in different disciplines, the time frame and location would play a big part in driving attendance. But, of course, you already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted September 10, 2003 Author Share Posted September 10, 2003 Looking like the end of February in Kingsville Texas. Weather should be comfortable and will kind of be a season opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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