Should USPSA Find a "Home" for the Nationals?

[XRe]

I get all my information from Dave Re.

You're in big trouble, then, my friend!

(eta... take that however you want to take it )

Edited December 17, 2008 by XRe

[Front Man]

A National Championship should be towards the end of the shooting season.

Just like most other professional sports.

It is too weird to crown a National Champion with half of a season to go.

JMHO

FM

Oh, I don't know... I think we are more like Nascar than most any other pro sport out there. It seems that Daytona is doing just fine and it's the first race of the season.

Edited to add: OK, OK, maybe we are more like PGA or Pro Tennis , but I'm having a hard time admitting the comparison is valid. Sorry, Z.

I have thought about this and realized the AMA Supercross season will begin (again) the first Saturday night in January and run non-stop until May.

That is the end of THAT season.

I just always thought it should be in September or October.

The weather SHOULD be a lot nicer too.

I haven't shot the Nationals since '95 so I really don't have an agenda.

FM

[Skizeks]

+1 for Quincy

Tulsa would be a great place if it don't rain!!

[Chuck Anderson]

Anyone shoot 2006 MG Nationals at ARPC? Anyway they would be able to handle a Handgun National event?

Nope, they wouldn't.

[uscbigdawg]

And it's never rained (badly) in Illinois during a Nationals? Hmmm...pretty sure I've got video of the 1993 or 1994 Nat's where it was a downpour. From a reliable source, the drainage issues at USSA are being resolved.

Rich

[shooterbenedetto]

I only have one suggestion in mind VEGAS BABY VEGAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chuck Anderson]

As long as Vegas has the support personnel willing to give it a go I'd love to go back. The MG there sucked though because the club rep was checked out. Sounds like there is a new group and a new couple ranges that are willing to host. Hopefully it will work out.

[chuckbradley]

I like Vegas or Reno.

Tulsa is a good facility but the mud has been a problem and from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

Personally i think USPSA should purchase its own facility and use it for its own big events. Sure it may not be as attractive as a traveling destination, unless its around a place like vegas, but isnt it about the shooting? With the same facility being used year after year just think of the facilities we could build instead of tossing money away to set up a match at different venues. Not only the cost look at the quality and intensity of the props we could have? The quality of the stages and event would be at a level I dont think we have at a nationals now due to the roaming of the event.

We could have a hall for sign ups, shooters meetings, meals, prize distribution and banquets. We could build accommodations for RO's and staff. We could build covered areas for the shooters and staff.

With USPSA getting more diversified that facility could hold all kinds of matches year round. It could also host RO classes, shooting classes, training for LEO/MIL.

I also think it should be located around a big travel destination location or in the center of the country close to a major city. Most of all in a gun friendly state. Cost of land would be an issue. It would be about going to the event and not the night life.

Yes its a long term goal. Its where I think USPSA should be headed.

[uscbigdawg]

Amen Chuck.

Rich

[Chuck Anderson]

I like Vegas or Reno.

Tulsa is a good facility but the mud has been a problem and from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

Personally i think USPSA should purchase its own facility and use it for its own big events. Sure it may not be as attractive as a traveling destination, unless its around a place like vegas, but isnt it about the shooting? With the same facility being used year after year just think of the facilities we could build instead of tossing money away to set up a match at different venues. Not only the cost look at the quality and intensity of the props we could have? The quality of the stages and event would be at a level I dont think we have at a nationals now due to the roaming of the event.

We could have a hall for sign ups, shooters meetings, meals, prize distribution and banquets. We could build accommodations for RO's and staff. We could build covered areas for the shooters and staff.

With USPSA getting more diversified that facility could hold all kinds of matches year round. It could also host RO classes, shooting classes, training for LEO/MIL.

I also think it should be located around a big travel destination location or in the center of the country close to a major city. Most of all in a gun friendly state. Cost of land would be an issue. It would be about going to the event and not the night life.

Yes its a long term goal. Its where I think USPSA should be headed.

Let's see USSA sunk millions into that range and it's not good enough for USPSA. How much money would USPSA have to spend to get this range you speak of. Who would maintain it throughout the year, Who would run the classes and training? How would you do that as a non profit organization?

[Coach]

I like Vegas or Reno.

Tulsa is a good facility but the mud has been a problem and from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

Personally i think USPSA should purchase its own facility and use it for its own big events. Sure it may not be as attractive as a traveling destination, unless its around a place like vegas, but isnt it about the shooting? With the same facility being used year after year just think of the facilities we could build instead of tossing money away to set up a match at different venues. Not only the cost look at the quality and intensity of the props we could have? The quality of the stages and event would be at a level I dont think we have at a nationals now due to the roaming of the event.

We could have a hall for sign ups, shooters meetings, meals, prize distribution and banquets. We could build accommodations for RO's and staff. We could build covered areas for the shooters and staff.

With USPSA getting more diversified that facility could hold all kinds of matches year round. It could also host RO classes, shooting classes, training for LEO/MIL.

I also think it should be located around a big travel destination location or in the center of the country close to a major city. Most of all in a gun friendly state. Cost of land would be an issue. It would be about going to the event and not the night life.

Yes its a long term goal. Its where I think USPSA should be headed.

I agree. Sounds good. There would be a million questions but they could all be handled.

[zhunter]

I like Vegas or Reno.

Tulsa is a good facility but the mud has been a problem and from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

Personally i think USPSA should purchase its own facility and use it for its own big events. Sure it may not be as attractive as a traveling destination, unless its around a place like vegas, but isnt it about the shooting? With the same facility being used year after year just think of the facilities we could build instead of tossing money away to set up a match at different venues. Not only the cost look at the quality and intensity of the props we could have? The quality of the stages and event would be at a level I dont think we have at a nationals now due to the roaming of the event.

We could have a hall for sign ups, shooters meetings, meals, prize distribution and banquets. We could build accommodations for RO's and staff. We could build covered areas for the shooters and staff.

With USPSA getting more diversified that facility could hold all kinds of matches year round. It could also host RO classes, shooting classes, training for LEO/MIL.

I also think it should be located around a big travel destination location or in the center of the country close to a major city. Most of all in a gun friendly state. Cost of land would be an issue. It would be about going to the event and not the night life.

Yes its a long term goal. Its where I think USPSA should be headed.

+100

[

Let's see USSA sunk millions into that range and it's not good enough for USPSA. How much money would USPSA have to spend to get this range you speak of. Who would maintain it throughout the year, Who would run the classes and training? How would you do that as a non profit organization?

First of all, Vegas would take care of flooding, as it is a desert, so would an Arizona Location, as would a New Mexico location.

Soil test are a must. Remember, dry land, i.e not prone to flooding is always going to be more expensive.

I am total agreement that the USPSA should move towards owning a range.

[LPatterson]

I am in total disagreement with owning our own range. The skeet club I am a life member of is being forced off the property it has leased for 50 years. The club is moving to land mananged by a board of directors established as a 501c(3) organization using land leased from Fish, Wildlife and Parks. The board is responsible for roadways and infrastructure but the individual clubs using the land are responsible for building their own facilities. Our club had over $60,000 in a building fund and still had to take out a loan for building a new club house and new skeet fields. The loan is being repaid by leveeing a yearly assessment of $100 on all members until the loan is paid off.

I doubt may members would stay if USPSA started asking for an extra $100 to $200 a year for a play ground they would use a week or two a year.

[chuckbradley]

A gun friendly state and a local government that wants you there who will make sure the legal issues are handled. Some communities in the midwest will want the facility and help in this respect. A national organization is much different than a local club. I realize the problems locals clubs have. We have our own issues here. I am not saying it will be a bed of roses but I do think its the way USPSA should be headed in the long term.

To discuss non profit status would require a tax accounting lesson but it could be structured as such, and operate as such.

[Gary Stevens]

I taught an RO class in Reno a few months ago. They emphatically declared that there was no way they could run a nationals.

[Religious Shooter]

The grunts (people who actually provide the muscle to set up stages) are usually locals.

If USPSA bought a range... how would they go about getting those grunts? Are they going to somehow find a location where there is a local and consistent supply? Or are they going to fly-in the grunts and pay to feed them and house them?

I remember you saying that you are a mayor and your constituents would come and say "Hey I want this." "This would be a good idea to do". Etc.

Then you would say it would cost this much... and you would have to raise taxes... etc. Then they would balk.

It would be interesting if we actually went through the excercise to see what USPSA would actually have to do to get it's own place. And not only that... what resources (manpower, $$$, etc.) it would need to keep it going.

[mactiger]

The grunts (people who actually provide the muscle to set up stages) are usually locals.

Not strictly true. For the past several years, the setup crew has consisted of non-local people who volunteered for setup duty when they applied to work Nationals. There are some "local" (some of them live about 3-4 hours away) people that do a large portion of the pre-setup work at PASA, but even there the majority of the setup work is done by range officers that travel to do it. In Missoula, there were a number of local club members who did the lions share of the work, both pre-setup and during setup, but overall, most setup is done by non-local people. This is why having one set location, long-term, is a better deal for producing Nationals, IMO--it's easier to get commitment from the host club if it's going to be a long term deal, and things become better organized with repetition.

Troy

[Religious Shooter]

Well that's interesting.

But I don't see how it Jives with Gary Steven's note that he "taught an RO class in Reno a few months ago. They emphatically declared that there was no way they could run a nationals."

If all these people will fly/travel in... why does Reno (and other clubs) think it can't hold a match?

[mactiger]

Because somebody has to be the local contact, and take care of some of the local jobs that a long-distance match director can't do, because he's not physically there. I suspect the problem is lack of interest and not lack of people in Reno, but I don't know. There could be several other reasons, some of them probably political. I can speak to Nationals in Missoula, MT, PASA, and USSA--I was MD for Missoula, but I live in Louisiana. Paul Miner was an invaluable local contact, and the club handled a lot of the organizational issues that I couldn't. For USSA, the MD's have been varied, ranging from local people like Phil Strader and Kelly Raglin, to David Hyden. Hyden lives about 90 minutes away, so it was doable for him. Ray Hirst has been MD for the last several matches at PASA, and if not MD, he was the local contact, along with others. But, the setup crew (except for Missoula, like I said) wasn't made up of local people for the most part. Phil, Kelly, and David did a lot of pre-setup work, but setup crew people came from all over. It takes a lot of time off work to set up and do a Nationals. Many people can't or won't take that time off. Some can, and they do.

Because the USPSA president does not act as Match Director, he has to find someone willing to do that job. That's another aspect of moving Nationals around the country--finding willing people.

I don't know why the Reno people told Gary that they couldn't hold a Nationals, but I suspect it has more to do with motivation than population, club-wise.

Troy

[Jim Norman]

Because often the non-USPSA membership in a local club far out numbers us and they don't want their range clsed for two or more weeks.

As for a long term commitment, I agree that is a good idea. With the cost of roadable trailers pretty low, we could have several set at a location, filled with the props that USPSA owns and ready for the matches. When the contract is up, we could simply get a contract hauler to move the load to the new range.

Yeah , I know it really isn't that simple, but in general terms...

Me, I would still opt for Tulsa IF and only IF they dry out the ranges. PASA has been known to blow down and flood. Just about every place we are likely to be able to run a Nationals will have some possibility of bad weather. It is not the weather that is the problem, but the immediate aftermath. If the ground drains and the roads don;t stay flooded for weeks (Mississippi River Basin) we should not be too inconvenienced. We can shoot in the rain. We aren't Bullseye shooters after all.

I do think that enough diversions need to be available. PASA is pretty much out in the no where when you get down to it. Tulsa has at least a few things to do being fairly large city. There are clubs, restaurants, bars, museums, parks and etc. PASA has, well, PASA.

Jim

[Gary Stevens]

I believe their point was they did not have the infrastructure that would be needed. Numerous walls, props, etc. would have to be built prior to the "set up crew" taking over their job. As Troy said, after 2-3 years at the same place, much of that infrastructure is in place along with experienced individuals who know how to get things done.

It normally takes someone on the ground to act somewhat as "Foreman" to keep things moving along. I believe their point was they did not have the core cadre that would be needed to even start the process.

Additionally they have 10-12 bays and our Nationals have grown to expect more than that. The minimum bench mark for stages has been moved up over the years and that expectation has eliminated many ranges that we had previously used.

To add to what Troy has said, I "volunteered" for the set up crew at PASA two years in a row. It required burning another week of vacation, and building several stages a day, repairing props, buying additional materials, and just all around fun and festivities.

Putting on a nationals is a big, big job.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Gary Stevens

[chuckbradley]

Question to Gary and Troy- Would it be easier, more cost effective and provide a higher level of stage quality if we had our own location that served as a "HOME" ?

[JFlowers]

The problem with "owning" a range is cost justifying it for just a few weekends of use each year. You would have to keep the facility busy to make it a break-even proposition.

But, if USPSA wanted to investigate that option, one course of action might be to contact SASS and ask them what they learned when they bought and built their own range.

[George Jones]

I hate to play naysayer, but......

It's all about $

IMO, the expense of acquiring and maintaining a permanent facility would require a financial investment beyond the current capabilities of this organization. We simply do not have the demographics (membership numbers) to assure the kind of financial resources which would be required.

Sure, the facility could support other activities year-round, but that means additional staff (more financial commitment). What if it turned out that all those rosy projections didn't prove accurate? More organizational money down the drain.

Sometimes the best measure of success is knowing when NOT to get too big for our britches.

As much as I wish we could successfully undertake such a long-term project, I don't think it's feasible in the foreseeable future. The financial risk is just too great at this point. Perhaps by the time this economy recovers (and I'll be drooling in my mush by then).....

[Gary Stevens]

Chuck in all honesty I don't know all of the pro's and con's. I know the initial cost factor is huge, and as has been noted before I don't know how popular it would be to have all of the members paying extra for 400-500 folks who shoot the nationals.

I know one of the con's I always hear is the lead polution of the land. We all know that shooting is not popular in some circles, and lead polution is one way ranges are being attacked.

On top of that, I guarantee you that no matter where you put it withing a period of time, the voices will rise from the wilderness about why they have to go to this place every year.

And on and on and on.

Gary