Resting Rifle on Mag

[jobob]

This was brought up in another thread, but due to thread drift it didn't get the discussion I believe it deserves.

It seems that some shooters interpret present rules against using a "rifle supporting device" as applying to resting on the magazine, whether single or double clamped mags. I don't interpret it this way at all. A bipod is a device that is attached to the rifle for the express purpose of providing a stable rest. A magazine is something we use to feed cartridges into the rifle, and is necessary for the proper function of the rifle. As such it becomes a part of the rifle. If the rifle rests on the magazine (or magazines if two are clamped together) how can that be called an illegal "rifle supporting device", just because the magazine happens to be touching the ground? If you rest the handguard on some terrain feature, or on a barricade, or window ledge, or the pistol grip or buttstock touches the ground, would that, too, be illegally using a "rifle supporting device"? I don't think so.

That rule was not created to prevent shooters from using their allowed equipment in the most efficient way possible. It was created to limit the equipment race as in Open division. It's one dividing line between Limited/Tactical and Open. I appreciate the difference, and would rather not have to deal with packing a bipod around. It's one way you can tell an Open shooter at a glance. The rule is to limit the accoutriments attached to the rifle, some of which may give the shooter a competitive advantage, not to limit the normal use of the tactical rifle. The differences between Open and Tactical is in the equipment that is allowed, not in how that equipment is used. If the object is to prevent Tactical/Limited shooters from using any kind of available support, then maybe that would be best approached through stage design that limits the ability to go prone, or (this I'm sure would be popular) by limiting those divisions to 20 round magazines, or even 10. Hey, wouldn't THAT be a hoot? Maybe instead of Limited or Tactical, we'd just be in Production.

One poster on that thread stated that new rules for RM3gun will specifically prohibit resting the rifle on a magazine, or at least prohibit such use with a double mag (like THAT makes a big difference). I really don't understand why some match administrators think they need to regulate everything so tightly. I thought that one purpose of our sport was to allow shooters some leeway to creatively solve a particular problem. Will this new rule require the use of 10 or 20 round magazines whenever a shooter goes prone, just to ensure he isn't wickedly trying to steady his aim? Will ROs be required to lie down next to the shooter and slide a piece of paper under his mags while he's shooting, just to make certain they aren't touching the ground? My goodness, we couldn't allow THAT now, could we? Oh, the horror!

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. I dunno. But it just strikes me as overly heavy-handed controlling of the competitors. I have had RM3gun on my wish list of matches to attend, but if this rumor is true I'll have to re-think my priorities. Creating silly rules just to.... uh....well.... I don't really know what the purpose of the silly rule is. It's just a silly rule that, to my mind, hurts the competitors and the sport. Apparently, some people feel that I've been cheating the last several years by resting my rifle on my double cinched mags (one look at my scores will dispell that notion), and it HAS to stop!

Am I the only one who thinks this is a missinterpretation of the rules and exerting too much control on the competitors? Am I being petty? Am I being too resistant to change? After all, we seem to live in the era of change, and I suppose we should just give in to it, right? I'm all for change, btw, if it improves the sport.

Rant over. I tend to have strong opinions sometimes (NO! REALLY?) Not trying to start a flame war, but I'd like other shooters' opinions. Perhaps I could be convinced that I'm full of Bravo Sierra....or not!

[Brian Payne]

I was watching the comments on the other thread with interest.

My common practice is to always have two mags clamped together. That is where my reload comes from. My duty MP-5 entry weapon has two mags clamped together. The AR in the squad also has two mags clamped together. My AR for 3-gun has two mags clamped together. Just seemed natural. "One is none, two is one" type of thinking.

All clamped mags are level at the bottom, sometimes comes in handy when going prone, sometimes causes problems if the ground is not level. I am not really seeing where it would be that much of an advantage going prone with two mags clamped vs just using one mag.

I vote it is a bad rule to try to eliminate a non-existant problem.

But on the same train of thought. The rules of a match generally do not dictate whether I will attend or not, the fun factor does. RM3G is an awesome match and will always be on my list of "Must attend" matches. If I need to learn to do reloads from my back pocket or mag pouches for that match, I will do so. I would just rather keep doing what I have been doing.

[Jim Norman]

I personally don't rest, but I have friends that do.

Should there be a rule that prohibits it? NO

Should the designer be able to specify in the WSB a position or place in the COF where it flat out is impossible to rest? YES

Simple within FFZ engage all targets as they become visible. Set the fault lines back from a wall that has a large port, shooter will have no choice but to shoot unsupported. Problem solved. No change in rules required.

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

a rifle supporting device is one thing and a magazine is another, they were designed for 2 different things. So are you saying tactical shooters shouldn't have rifle racks to place rifles in while waiting to start the stage either???????????

Trapr

[TRUBL]

Resting on a magazine is no problem...it would be like resting on the forearm, pistol grip, etc. Where it really comes into play is "what defines a supporting device?"

Now....putting a 6" wide magazine pad on your 30 round magazine....thats a little out there.

Putting an extended base on your beta.....that could be a little out there.

Putting a vertical grip on that is say 12 or 14 inches long?.....thats a little out there too.

I'll aggree, doubled up mags....shouldn't be an issue, but at what point does it become an issue? when the space between the magazine are 2"? 4"? Like I say, I'm not thinking its an issue and depending on the terrain, mostly likely a henderance. I personally am not a fan of cinched mags.....maybe that why we developed what we did??

I like the fact that JJ is looking in to the aspect of "what defines a supporting device?" as at somepoint, that magazine CAN become a supporting device and so can the vertical grip. He probably won't be popular, but I admire that he is looking into it. ALSO....before anyone goes off on the RM3G, JJ told me a while back that the rules are still in the works and not written in stone yet. He has something wrtten and posted, but they were going to change. (I really hate to speak for other people)

Ofcourse, this means that the magazine extension pad cinch with the extendable bi-bod and short range auxillary optic that I've been developing probably won't be good for tactical class.....damn rules!!!

Tim

[Carlos]

Ridiculous!

Anyone that thinks this should be banned needs to take a long hard look at the latest basic training that our military has adopted - which specifically teaches soldiers to use the magazine as a rest (there is an Army Times article around here someplace on this internet).

I realize USPSA does not have to mirror military doctrine (and I doubt its USPSA's intention to ban magazine rests). But all these so-called "tactical" or outlaw 3gun matches? If they ban magazine rests, then they are more like unrealistic games than the USPSA they seek to avoid.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Carlos

[Dan Sierpina]

I took a look at the rule in question. It states at this time enlarging the footprint of the magazine. Magpul Ranger baseplates are a smaller footprint than the stock base on an 30 round mag. Clamping 2 together would be close to the same footprint, in square inches.

The idea, while noble, will open a large can of worms.

[Brian Payne]

The rules don't appear to ban the practice of using the magazine as a rest.

"Bi-pods, verticle foregrips that are rested on the ground or props, or mag pads/additions designed to enlarge the footprint of a single mag and rested on the ground or props".

I still say two cinched mags should not be against the rules because you are not enlarging the footprint of a single magazine, you are just using two single magazines locked together. If you are not allowing two cinched mags, then technically anyone using any sort of base pads on their rifle mags (Arrendondo type) would be in violation because it would enlarge the footprint also.

Again, a rule to combat a problem that really doesn't exist in my opinion.

I was typing at the same time as Dan - he brings up a good point. If I used two Arrendondo or Ranger base pads, the footprint (touching the ground) of two of these would still be less than that of one standard magazine.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Brian Payne

[TonyH]

WOW!!!!!

Can we come up with any more silly AZZ things that make no sense! Who cares if you use 1,2,3 mags for support. It really doesn't make a difference. Come on.

[StealthyBlagga]

IMHO, this kind of silly micromanagement of the shooter has to stop. Its not just monopoding off mags, its also the silly "vertical foregrip can't touch anything" rule. I don't use a VFG, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the guys who do happen to use one find this rule intensely irritating. If we are going to be this anal, maybe it will be easier to simply allow all manner of support devices, including bipods, in Tactical. Why not ? They have been built into several "real world" military rifles in the past. My only stipulation would be that any bipod would have to stay on the rifle for the duration of the match... I find the idea that you can add and remove a bipod during a match nonsensical and inconsistent with the principles of the sport. If you can handle the weight and bulk on a hoser stage, you get to enjoy the extra stability in the long-range stages.

[Merlin Orr]

Seems pretty clear what the "shooters" think & want...

My feelings pretty much go along with...

IMHO, this kind of silly micromanagement of the shooter has to stop.

[jobob]

I have a number of mags that I go to, depending on the stage design. My more-or-less 'normal' settup is to use 2 Pmags clamped together (either with Ranger floorplates, or slip-on Magpuls) if the stage calls for 20 - 30 rounds. That way I have a quick reload if I happen to go over 30. It's also a handy rest sometimes when I need to go prone or shoot off a bench, but, like was pointed out, it may be a hinderance if the terrain is unneven. It actually hurt me on the long range stage at the R&R match this year. I didn't allow for the fact that the targets were above my elevation, and resting on the 30 rounders put the rifle so low that I couldn't get into it. I got a terrible kink in my neck and I could barely see through the scope. Needless to say, I blew that stage. Did it occur to me to just raise up and rest on my elbows? Hell no! Resting on the mags had become a crutch for me, but that was my problem, caused by me, not a problem in search of a rule. The next stage that required prone I went to a DPMS 45 rounder, which worked great. Is that 'gaming'? Yes, I'll cheerfully admit to gaming once-in-awhile, if adapting to a situation in order to try to shoot a better score is 'gaming'. Often it backfires and it's just another learning experience. I've had LOTS of those, LOL!

I suppose using an Arredondo base pad may be viewed as 'enlarging the footprint', although since it's curved on the bottom the part actually touching the ground may be less than a bare-bottom mag. Someone could come up with a contraption that would attach to the mag bottom with the purpose to act as a shooting pedestal. How about something with a wide base that swivels to account for terrain variations. That, to me, would be a clear rule violation.

If someone absolutely has to make a rule to address this non-existent problem, then maybe they could just specify the maximum square inches that can be in contact with the ground at any one time. That would be fun for the ROs to enforce, wouldn't it? But at least it would be measurable and more or less objective.

I do agree with Brian. Perhaps I'm too hasty saying I won't go to a match because of some silly rule. All the outlaw matches with different rules does not cause me heartburn like it does some people. It's all fun, and adapting to each situation, including the rules, is part of the game. OTOH, writing new rules for no apparent reason, which only have the effect of limiting shooters' options, takes out some of the fun, and only hurts our sport.

[jobob]

IMHO, this kind of silly micromanagement of the shooter has to stop. Its not just monopoding off mags, its also the silly "vertical foregrip can't touch anything" rule. I don't use a VFG, so I don't really have a dog in this fight, but the guys who do happen to use one find this rule intensely irritating. If we are going to be this anal, maybe it will be easier to simply allow all manner of support devices, including bipods, in Tactical. Why not ? They have been built into several "real world" military rifles in the past. My only stipulation would be that any bipod would have to stay on the rifle for the duration of the match... I find the idea that you can add and remove a bipod during a match nonsensical and inconsistent with the principles of the sport. If you can handle the weight and bulk on a hoser stage, you get to enjoy the extra stability in the long-range stages.

Exactly! I will admit to using a bipod when advantageous at Ironman. It's allowed to install/remove it at will, so I do, or did this year. But you make a very good point!

Edited November 19, 2008 by jobob

[TRUBL]

Personally, I think the rule is fine the way it is. To make any rules that make a person change his or her equipment for one match is going in the wrong direction.

I do however.....get into range lawyer mode at times.....then I settle down and come back to the real world. So I take back what I said in my last post....go figure eh?

Tim

Edited November 19, 2008 by TRUBL

[Chuck Anderson]

"Rifle external supporting devices(bipods, foregrips rested on ground or

props, mag basepads wider than the magazine, etc.) and compensators

bigger than 1” in diameter and 3” long (muzzle to end of comp) are NOT

allowed in this class. There are NO “beta/C” mags or magazines over 10”

(lips to base along back spine) allowed in this class."

The above was the original rule that was sent to me by JJ. I know that I whined and threw a fit when I saw it. To my way of thinking, as written it excluded PMags, Arredondo base plates and a host of other accessories. My understanding is that it was written because somebody thought it was a good idea to attach a flat piece of wood or something to the bottom of a mag to act as a rest. Probably worked great but having a 6"x6" piece of wood on the bottom of a mag is pretty clearly a rest. I think this rule was not written well. It has since been changed, but I'm sure other match directors may have the same thing in mind.

Personally, I rest my gun on the mags. Normally two clamped together. I don't see an issue with this and I do the same when I'm pointing a rifle at real people, not targets. If someone starts adding things to the mags designed specifically as a rest, I can see that as a rifle supporting device and should not be allowed. If it's a MagPul plate for yanking the mag out of a pouch I don't think that should be a supporting device.

[uscbigdawg]

I was talking to a buddy about this and he even brought up that it's going to be proposed that use of a Redi-Mag is not allowed in Limited/Tactical but clamping mags together is okay. WTF? I should mention that this is USPSA not any of the IMG matches (thus far).

While I'm not opposed to restricting mag lengths/capacities (however it gets decided) in Tactical/Limited divisions, there's no reason why someone couldn't support the rifle on a mag or add a Magpul or Arredondo floor plate.

Rich

[ERIC]

I agree with the majority here that it is a silly rule.

I use 2-30s clamped together at the same elevation because the height works for me when I'm prone. If I offset them, it would be OK in one setting but too high in the other. They might as well make it mandatory for all reloads to come from the hip when prone because that's what I'll be forced to do.

I don't know what the big deal is anyways. A couple of moths ago, we had to shoot prone on a down slope and the 45 round magazine height worked just fine. I used a single because I don't have 2-45s clamped together. I didn't notice a huge disadvantage only having 1 mag base touching the ground. They are making it sound like having 2 mags touch the ground is a huge advantage when it really isn't.

[uscbigdawg]

And that's there idea is that they want mags "off of the gun". However, I've received ZERO explanation how clamping is okay, but a Redi-Mag isn't.

Rich

[jhgtyre]

Well the cheatin' mag extensions like this one

are obviously the culprit here! You can't even put that in a mag pouch!

-ld

[ERIC]

You just had to let my secret out. Now everybody will be using one of those.

[kellyn]

What TonyH posted!

[PacMan]

Much easier to stage prop (either natural or man-made) to eliminate the use of magazine(s) as mono-pod/support instead of managing by rules. Most of RM3G stages are in natural setting so the perceived advantage of oversized mono-pod by clamping two mags together is rather over-blown, same goes for no C-Mags (all you have to do is a mandatory mag change at certain part of the course then the value of C-Mag goes away.) There is a lot more to rifleman-ship than equipment, one of which is practice, and the other is practice, and lastly.... practice.

A lot of statics and buzzes for nothing

Edited November 19, 2008 by PacMan

[kurtm]

Well I for one agree wiht the "new" rule. In REAL rifle competition, no part of the rifle may touch the ground. It has been this way since I can remember. This silly "action rifle" stuff is for the birds. Everone knows that the only REAL rifle shooting is done with a big heavy coat, big old glove on one hand, and you would never move with the rifle...that is just plain dangerouse!! NOPE!! Hi-Power is the only REAL rifle shooting left in America. I am glad to see the "tactibilly" crowd FINALLY implement some meaningful rules.

As for the 10" from lips to base plate along the back spin...OUTSTANDING!!!! Now we can keep all other rifles out of the competiton that comes stock with an odd sized magazine, like AKs, Galis, and the reall trash of the rifle world the H&K 93. It is about time all the "tacticool crowd got in line with the REAL RIFLE SHOOTERS!! everyone know only an AR-15 is good for REAL RIFLE shooting. I can't wait untill you yahoos see the light and only allow single loading or at most 8 rounds in the margazine at one time. Congratulations to RM3G the only true inovator when it comes to sensible restrictions...a phrase I think we will be hearing allot more in the futur. Kudos! KurtM

[Merlin Orr]

Well I for one agree wiht the "new" rule. In REAL rifle competition, no part of the rifle may touch the ground. It has been this way since I can remember. This silly "action rifle" stuff is for the birds. Everone knows that the only REAL rifle shooting is done with a big heavy coat, big old glove on one hand, and you would never move with the rifle...that is just plain dangerouse!! NOPE!! Hi-Power is the only REAL rifle shooting left in America. I am glad to see the "tactibilly" crowd FINALLY implement some meaningful rules.

As for the 10" from lips to base plate along the back spin...OUTSTANDING!!!! Now we can keep all other rifles out of the competiton that comes stock with an odd sized magazine, like AKs, Galis, and the reall trash of the rifle world the H&K 93. It is about time all the "tacticool crowd got in line with the REAL RIFLE SHOOTERS!! everyone know only an AR-15 is good for REAL RIFLE shooting. I can't wait untill you yahoos see the light and only allow single loading or at most 8 rounds in the margazine at one time. Congratulations to RM3G the only true inovator when it comes to sensible restrictions...a phrase I think we will be hearing allot more in the futur. Kudos! KurtM

Curt Mauler... You should be on our BOD here at the CC,TX Pistol and Rifle Club. Your deep and thoughtful insights into the "Right Way with the Right Rifle" would be deeply appreciated....

[chendersby]

Ridiculous!

Anyone that thinks this should be banned needs to take a long hard look at the latest basic training that our military has adopted - which specifically teaches soldiers to use the magazine as a rest (there is an Army Times article around here someplace on this internet).

I realize USPSA does not have to mirror military doctrine (and I doubt its USPSA's intention to ban magazine rests). But all these so-called "tactical" or outlaw 3gun matches? If they ban magazine rests, then they are more like unrealistic games than the USPSA they seek to avoid.

Leave USPSA out of this one! You can support all you want off the mag in USPSA Tactical and Limited. The concept is "freestyle". I should go on a rant about rules standardization at this point but I will control myself.

I would like to hear JJ's input though.