Prizes???

[Bear1142]

While its a thread drift and I won't go in depth in this thread (we can start another one if interested), I don't support random prize drawings. I didn't come to win a raffle, I came to compete. If I win, I'm rewarded. If I lose, I'm not. Partial incentive to practice more and get better. (mig- Don't want to hear your pie-hole, I know what you think )

Erik

[THS]

Erik

That works for you, and maybe 2% of the membership who have a reasonable chance or expectation of winning. I ran the High Desert Championships for 3 years, and the same guy won all 3. He would sell the prize before he left the awards ceremony, and wait for his payback check too. Everyone else coming to the match figured the Gracey was DD's. I changed it the last year, and Juniors who needed gear won raffle prizes they needed! That was COOL. How many belts and holsters do you need? Look at the classifieds for "Good deals on prize table items" and you'll see what I mean.

You know who shows up at the local events here, much less the majors. Prize tables have encouraged sand-baggers, gamesmen, and outright cheaters. Period! I wont bore you with the examples I've seen.

I'd suggest a prize for the winner of the 5 divisions ONLY. Everyone else gets a minimal payback of some type.

Tom

[reneet]

While its a thread drift and I won't go in depth in this thread (we can start another one if interested), I don't support random prize drawings. I didn't come to win a raffle, I came to compete. If I win, I'm rewarded. If I lose, I'm not. Partial incentive to practice more and get better. (mig- Don't want to hear your pie-hole, I know what you think )

Erik

I'll 2nd that. Random prize drawings suck and I've started taking them into consideration before deciding to attend a match.

[Flexmoney]

Admin. note:

The above (three) posts were seperated into their own thread.

[Mig]

If I win, I'm rewarded. If I lose, I'm not.  Partial incentive to practice more and get better. (mig- Don't want to hear your pie-hole, I know what you think )

Erik

Erik {Prize Boy}

I would have to agee .... you need to practice more ....

[Bear1142]

THS,

Don't get me wrong, I think some improvement and standardization over the current system is needed. I also don't have a problem taking some of the stuff and having a raffle for the Jr. shooters. I applaude any attempt to support them. Having said that, I think you're correct that only 2% have a chance to win, but its not the same 2%. On a different thread I got abused for suggesting they should change L-10 to Single stack class. All the L-10 guys said the SS guys should practice more. Why am I punished for putting in the time and effort to be a better shooter and others don't? When it comes time to shoot, I still have to perform. It's not automatically mine for showing up. I agree there are a lot of sandbaggers and other problems with the system, but they are the exception, not the rule. I think the rule should be changed so that if you win your class at an Area or a Nationals match, and you shoot a 5 % above you current average, you get bumped automatically. (Except to GM class, that you should have to earn). I appreciate some of your other concerns, but I don't want to do away with the whole system. What about a system where you pay an enhanced entry fee to be considered for the prize table. If you just want to shoot you pay a reduced fee. But I don't want to hear any complaining when you (not you in particular) win you're class and they hand you a nice little plaque, but you didn't pay the prize table entry fee and the #2 guy did. So he leaves with a brand new pistol and a nice cash payback check. Anyway, there are solutions we just need to address some of the problems.

[Thomas Moore]

this is an excellent debate that will never come to agreement. my opinion is to reward the the top three in each class "size permitting" by letting them go first then have a random drawing for the rest of the competitors. shooting and placing is rewarded but still random for the rest. don't know if this makes sence but it seems to be a compromise.

[Chriss Grube]

The ranDUMB drawing sucks. It is like welfare you get something you didn't work for and earn. I tired of hearing the old " the same guys win all the time". Get off your ass and go practice. The problem with prize tables is that you rarely win something you need or want. Win a frame great, there's a 1500-2000 dollar bill to build a new toy. I know for the sponsors it is easier and cheaper to donate product than cash but why not a certificate for X amount of their product. That way you don't end up with the box of spare triggers that you'll never use. Cash is always nice. Problem is now with 5 divisions and 6 classes everything gets cut way down. If you win your class it is nice to at least get back your entry fee. Personally I'd rather see a reasonably priced match that gives out plaques than some of these $150-200 matches where you might win a mag release.

A quick way to stop some of the sandbagging is to do away with the one class lower system. You're a Master in Open guess what your a Master in Production and every other division. Do away with the 3 GM's in a division for the Area matches too. How many times are there 3 GM's in anything but Limited and Open?

[Flexmoney]

I am with Bear (no abuse on this one Erik. ). I think winners should go to the table first.

And, I agree with Chris...I would rather go to a reasonably priced plaque match. The money I save on match fees...I can use to buy the stuff I want.

(I do appreciate the sponsors though...thanks sponsors!)

[ong45]

I personally don't mind if the same guys win everytime. The biggest reason i travel to matches is to measure myself against the best (i always come up short though)

If it takes a higher match fee to stock the prize table and attract some of the top GM's i am all for it.

James

[Nolan]

(i always come up short though)

James

Yeah, but you short guys have it easy shooting the low ports!

[joshua]

Yeah, but you short guys have it easy shooting the low ports!

Oh and I guess the tall guys have it easy shooting the hight ports? There are disadvantages on both, match directors should take into account how many stage designs favor tall or short guys. Did I just drift away from the subject here?

[Wakal]

When I lay out stages, I like to run some tall ports and some short ports in order to ensure that everyone is annoyed equally

Speaking of annoying, while I do like prize tables, I am also happy shooting a more reasonably priced "trophy" match. Playing in a $200 match and winning a pair of Shok-buffs is fun, but playing in a $50 match and not winning anything is more fun

A

[sfinney]

My two cents .....

I've always liked the feeling and anticipation of picking up prizes from a table, in order of finish. I've won my share of raffled prizes, but I didn't appreciate them as much as that bottle of grease and a box of bullets that I felt I WORKED for. Or on rare occasionn a gun, a frame, parts, whatever.

I prefer Plaques for each Division and class, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc, PLUS a tour of the Prize Table - it recognizes the performance of the shooter, plus rewards everyone with a chance to take something nice home - the better you shoot, the better your choice of prize, even if you didn't win your class. It kind of softens the blow of losing 1st B class to that shooter who should be shooting A or M - you still get SOMETHING out of it.

And when I come home from the match after spending $150 in entry fees, I can show my wife my prize that I won, that usually offset that entry fee. For some a few hundred $ spent on a weekend of shooting may not be much, but its a huge expense for my shooting budget, and winning prizes in order of finish not only motivates me to practice more, but it also helps me justify to my wife that I can go to more matches (look honey, I was going to buy this anyway, and I WON it - look at all the money I saved)!

[Nik Habicht]

Other than IDPA --- with it's raffle style prize tables --- my only two experiences came this year. I got a $100 Montana Gold Bullet Gift Certificate at the FGN. I liked the "tour the table in order of finish in your division" and was glad to see separate prize tables for the three divisions. My other one was at the Summer Blast, a charity plaque match that has a raffle style prize table where you buy tickets to enter the raffle. The proceeds from the raffle go to the same charity as the match proceeds. The Summer Blast entry fee was about a third of an earned slot to the FGN. I'm fine with both of those options, but hate a high fee match that awards prizes at random.

[Shooter Grrl]

I like ALL the formats! To me, the reputation of the match - ie how good the stages and match administration are determines whether I'm going to fork over my money to shoot it - not what kind or how they give out prizes.

[Rufus The Bum]

Vendors are like new shooters, treat them well or they go somewhere else. Granted we give them lots of money, but most companies are mom and pop outfits. I normally give anything off of a prize table to the USPSA junior program, then I see people complaining about only winning a $120 pair of sunglasses. Think about a junior who could use one of your 5 prize table holsters. Imagine what that gun you won could do for the junior program, donate your spot in line to a junior. Why spend all this money on a hobby then get so upset about a stupid prize table?

[spl K]

Really great competitors,compete for money & prizes, not a pat on the back. Most great competitors already paid there own way in a sport, through hard work!now its time to get some payback. On the other hand random prizes should be for new up comming talent, to maintain intrest and build depth in the sport. I think we need both!! everyone likes to feel like a winner ,Just my 2 cents, because I am not top 10% or bottom 10% maybe I can see a little of both sides.

[shred]

I like prize tables at big matches. Top-down, separated by division, plaques for class winners. I've told the story before about picking up a JP AR trigger kit at the RGN's that I never would have bought that has turned into at least 4 more sales for JP so far. Prize tables IMHO are for A- the sponsors to get product samples in front of shooters and B- for shooters to try out those products.

I don't pick by price and pick what I want. I would prefer to see three $100 prizes on a table to one $300 one. Sometimes I find out it doesn't fit my needs, but most of the time I end up using it.

Random prizes don't give me any sense of accomplishment. At the first Area 4 match I ever went to (BE's last, I think), I hit the table down in the 'box-of-primers or firing-pin-spring' range, but thought "it would be cool to win one of those shooting bags". This year at Area 4, I won one of the huge Shooters Connection bags. That rocked.

[sfinney]

"I hit the table down in the 'box-of-primers or firing-pin-spring' range, but thought "it would be cool to win one of those shooting bags". - Roy"

Roy, I think we're on the same page - my first big match was Area 4 about 95 or so - it was a mind altering experience (as far as my shooting attitude goes) to see the Super Squad shoot, and then see the great Prize table. It really motivated me to want to get better. The only Nationals I've ever been to so far (I never seem to be able to afford it, or get off work) have been the first few 3 Gun Nats around the same time frame, in LA - and those had AWESOME prize tables.

I think that first match in 95 I took home some bullets and some "grease". Last year when I went , I took home a nice Plaque, and very nice prize haul. And I still use all of those match's vendor's products today; largely due to my exposure to them from the prize table system.

Are Prize Table discussions worth getting worked up over? No, I'm going to shoot anyway. But for those of us on a budget, who have had to practice 10 years to get to where we might be occasionally competitive, a little sack of goodies to take home (or <GASP> a gun! ) sure makes writing those $150 entry check a lot easier!

[JFD]

I don't like raffles at all. Won't go to those matches. Makes me think of the games at my young daughter's birthday parties, everybody gets a prize.

This is competition based on skill.

Top-down prize tables or plaque only matches award based on skill, so I like those. Of course I'm not going to win anything to speak of (used primers maybe), but one of these days I might...

[j1b]

I'm with Spl K and others. The higher the placement generally the more indication of time (and money) spent in sport. I've always supported a top down prize table.

Thanks

JB

[rboudrie]

Ok, let's talk about prize table welfare. Some would consider it welfare to tell the vast number of shooters who are either not skilled enough to advance in their class; don''t have time to practice; etc. Is it really "fair" (a nebulous term at best) to tell those shooters "You will not be permitted to compete in a large match or Area Championship unless you are willing to pay a surcharge so that the people more skilled than yourself can receive payback from your entry fee"? Of those respondents answering the Area 7 Survey (www.uspsa.org/survey question #8) question on this topic, 3% preferred order of overall finish; 79% preferred order within class; and 17% preferred door prizes.

The real prize at a match is your place on the scoresheet, and the sense of personal achievement in self-improvement.

Since there will never be an objectively "right" answer to this perennial question, the best way

to handle it is for matches to set their own policies and let the invisible hand of the free market sort out what match product people want to buy.

Rob Boudrie

[Jon Merricks]

Rob, I'm not making fun of you or the results of the survey. When I saw it a couple of days ago I thought it was great that an AD would take the time to go through all that trouble.

But the first thing I thought of when I saw it was that 79% of the shooters that answered that question would never have a chance to win. I just wonder what way I would vote if I were a top contender. Maybe one day.

Even though I'm in Area 6 I would like to say thanks for your hard work.

[Ironman]

I am still very new to this sport and would go to any compitition just for the fun and experiance. But if I were on the top I think it is only right to go from the top down.

Jim