Vince Pinto Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Hi guys, Let me toss an idea into the ring: What do you think would be the likely reaction if the USPSA proposed dropping Limited in favour of only keeping Limited 10? Correct me if I'm wrong but the only difference between the two divisions now is that L10 limits the number of rounds which can be loaded into pistols which hold more than 10 rounds, so double-stack and single-stack pistols compete on equal terms. Of course I know why L10 was introduced in the first place but, even if the 1994 law sunsets, so what? We're talking about competition rules not CCW or what magazines you have or can buy. The other benefits I see are that L10 requires more reloading on the move (a good thing for gun handling skills), and USPSA classifiers would not need to be "split" for L10/Limited. Any downsides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Vince, You're gonna piss off a bunch of people with $2-3K S_I and Para raceguns. Hell, I'd be annoyed for the amount of money I spent on normal magazines..... My take on the divisions are that they're pretty near perfect ---- as close as we can get without one group or another really feeling that there's no place for them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Nik, Thanks, but I don't quite understand. Why would a guy who spent $2-3k on a top-level Limited gun be upset if there was only L10? Surely many of the guys who shoot L10 now are the same guys who also shoot Limited, but they merely "download" to shoot L10, in addition to the guys who choose to shoot high price tag single stacks in L10. And why would expensive standard capacity (e.g. +10 round) magazines used in Limited lose value? I'm willing to admit I may have lost the plot here, so please be gentle with me, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Because some of us have over $100.00 US tied up in each mag. To get 20 rounds of 40 in a mag takes quite a bit of work. It would also likely put some people out of business or hurt there business anyway (ie grams, dawson, arrendondo,etc). I think the divisions we have should not be changed. Maybe tweeked a little, but keep what we got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 i agree with leaving them were they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 leave it the way it is Hi caps were designed to be hi caps thats how i would like to shoot it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I agree that the divisions are near perfect the way they are. Shooting standard-cap mags is just plain more fun. There is also the technical innovation to get that many rounds in the gun...that benefits everyone. It's also PRACTICAL...who would choose NOT to load as many rounds as their gun would possibly hold? SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 No way should we get rid of limited, that is the backbone of our sport. There are more compititors in limited division at every match I can recall. One thing I personally would like to see, and would be interested in peoples' opinions is to make L-10 a "single stack" division. Almost for the same reason Vince is talking about getting rid of limited. Many competitiors do use the their limited gun for L-10, so they could easily shoot limited. L-10 has gotten to the point where single stacks cannot compete. What do you think? Hope this isn't to far off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Vince, Try looking at the problem from another angle. Instead of changing Lim. to L-10, why not change L-10 to what it should have been, Single stack class. The whole idea was to allow the single stack guys to compete on an even level with the hi-cap guys, but it still doesn't work. It is extremely rare to find a SS guy who can run competitively against a hi-cap guy with downloaded mags and huge mag wells (everything else being equal). As a matter of pricipal, I will not shoot L-10 until they change the class to SS. Notice I also say Single stack and not 1911 class. If Glock or Sig or anybody else comes out with a suitable single stack gun, they should be able to play, not like the Single Stack Classic rules. I would rather see them eliminate revolver class if something has to go or be changed (That one should stir something up) Regards, Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 The answer to this question will become much more clear after we see if the U.S. AW ban is renewed, or a new, worse one is imposed (unfortunately, a likely possibility). Do the Aussies have any handguns left to compete with? Or, is worrying about their new laws a moot point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Bear, as far as I can understand (judging from overseas), the Lim-10 was not introduced to level the playground between SS and Hi-caps, but to have new competitors in Limited division to comply with the infamous Brady Bill. I would argue, as EricW suggested, the answer will be real easy after the final decision on the Hi-cap mags ban. For competition sake, I hope the ban will eventually be removed, and Lim-10 will eventually disappear in favor of the world-wide accepted Limited/Standard division, without mag restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 4, 2003 Author Share Posted August 4, 2003 Hi guys, Thanks for the information and for giving it to me so nicely. Ya see, Mom, I didn't need no stinkin' Kevlar - we only have nice people on the BE Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I agree that the divisions are near perfect the way they are.Shooting standard-cap mags is just plain more fun. There is also the technical innovation to get that many rounds in the gun...that benefits everyone. It's also PRACTICAL...who would choose NOT to load as many rounds as their gun would possibly hold? SA I agree with every single sentance!!! (and note that standard capacity mags are greater than 10 rounds) - don't stiffle innovation with round limits - don't piss off the customers that have already ponied up the $$ for extended hicaps L-10 does NOT need to be a single-stack ONLY division. There are two matches a month near me that are ran as what I would call Limited-8 (non-affiliated matches). As most of you know..I shoot a Glock 35. LOTS of other competitors at these matches shoot single-stack 45. I have NEVER heard one shooter grumble that the double-stack was an advantage. In fact, the usual winner of one of the matches is a single-stack shooter. It's all about the shooter..and how much practice he puts in. (sorry if that sounds rough) I look at each USPSA match as five matches in one. Each Division is a seperate match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 My 2 cents, Limited should stay the way it is. If we could make rules to change L10 (ie single stack, bushing barrel, standard guide rod, 5lb trigger, no mag well) and we could let SA single stack pistols play in production, I think that would make the most sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I for one would love to see Limited 10 changed to single stack only. Around here the majority of our new shooters show up with an off the shelf single stack and I cringe when I see accomplished limited shooters down load their mags for the advantage gained by a faster reload and a bit softer shooting pistol. On the bright side, we only have three limited masters in the whole state and all three of us do shoot single stacks in L10 even though we could do better with a fat gun. Flex: I really see an advantage to shooting a down loaded fat gun in L10 on stages that are standards. Even the best of single stack shooters who also shoot wide body guns can as a rule reload the fat gun faster. When two or three mandatory standing reloads are introduced into a COF the equipment advantage gained by the wide body shooter can be substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Now i am eyeballing L-10 as an inexpensive way for me to move from production with my G-34 to a different division with minimal investment. All I need is a different holster. Now the niceties of a magwell and putting my mags in front versus the side are appealing, as is the lack of a need to shell out mucho dinero to get into Limited and find I am not having fun or being competitive. Tweak what we have, in fact, let revolver shoot 8 rounds rather than 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Even the best of single stack shooters who also shoot wide body guns can as a rule reload the fat gun faster I think most of that is practice. I am not saying it isn't tougher...I'm not saying it is easier. I just don't think people are doing the practice. They aren't picking up the single-stacks and dry-firing/reloading with them everyday. Of course, many of the wide-body shooters aren't either...the equipment usually saves their sorry butts when they blow a reload. I think there are big-assed magwell available for the single-stacks too... But here is the "big picture", as I see it: I don't have any sales numbers, but lots and lots and lots of Glock's in 40 are sold now. There are just a bunch of them out there, and there are more coming. I can buy a Glock in 40 (used $400-500). I can buy a few 10 round mags at $16/each. Some kydex/plastic mag holders and holster. I am in the game cheap. Right off the bat, I have a gun that is perfect for Limited 10. I can download the same gun and shoot it in Production. I can upgrade the mags and shoot in Limited. Making Limited10 into a single-stack only division screws the Glock 40 shooters. That is a big pool of shooters to leave behind. BTW...I don't use a magwell on my Glock*...and I ain't a'scared of no SV! When I practice, my reloads go well. When I don't practice, they suck. *I do have a magwell on my 1911 (that never sees the light of day). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I like L10. I have only been shooting a couple of years now and L10 was a great introduction for me to this sport. I use a .45 single stack. I did not have to invest an arm and a leg to have my equipment be competititve with everyone else. Most people around here use single stacks in L10. Personally I do not feel disadvantage to those using their Limited guns just downloaded. Their mag exchanges may be a tad quicker but it is not significant at my level. Now I am inversting in a Limited blaster. But I have a little extra cash to make the purchase. I plan on shooting Limited in the near future. I would like to see the Divisions stay as they are. I think Production and L10 should stay! They are great Divisions for bringing in new shooters, without them having to shell out $3000 up front just to be competitive in Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Flex: I guess we just disagree on the fat gun vs. skinny gun advantage issue and that's cool. As for Glocks, yeah you are absolutely right on the Glock issue. In fact, in our local club two of the top five limited shooters are shooting Glocks. To eliminate Glocks (and for that matter Sigs, XDs, etc.) from L10 would indeed be a disservice to the entire shooting community. I reckon we need to just leave the divisions as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmark Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I also think the divisions are perfect the way they are. L-10 should not be SS only. If for no more than a selfish reason, I, like others I know, bought a ported DS pistol. That puts me in open. Of course, I can buy an unported barrel and play in limited with my 12 round hi-caps. Not quite a level playing field......... L-10 makes me competitive, if only on the club level. There are too many single action double stack guns that only hold somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 rounds to make L-10 go away. I wanted to shoot revolver, but the 6-round rule changed that. My 686+ holds 7, yet offers no advantage whatever in my hands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I guess we just disagree on the fat gun vs. skinny gun advantage issue and that's cool. I can be pretty stuborn sometimes. (shocking huh?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Mad Mark, Read the rules, you can use your revolver if you only shoots 6, pull the trigger 7 times and you are in open class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 if, there were any changes, L-10 should be single stack only. and vince, you need to buy kevlar panties, i wouldn't bother with the vest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 IMHO, USPSA should have made Lim 10 SS only. Matter of fact, they should have called it Single Stack. 8 rds max. Holster and mag carriers behind centerline, just like Production. And do the same thing with Revolver regarding holster and equipment. That would make Factory Gun Nationals, well, Factory guns. It doesn't make any sense to me that Production is behind centerline, but the other two are not. No sense that Production has to use non race holsters, but not the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I'm with TSCaptain, and I'll even go one step further: I wish there would be a world wide IPSC singlestack division. It would make a great division for beginners. There are no models to pick from (1911 only), like in production. Everyone has "equal" gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now