Limited 10 Vs Limited

[Loves2Shoot]

Mark, did you know you can load 7 if you only shoot 6?

[Madmark]

No, I didn't. I sold the gun already.

[Bear1142]

Wow, This is what happens when you visit a hot thread once every 24 hours. First, let me address two comments directed at my comments.

Flexmoney/ Steve Anderson- I have to disagree with your statement. "Its all about the shooter". It's not. Its a combination of shooters and equipment. Everytime this or a similar topic comes up, people are so quick to throw out the exceptions to the rule and not the general rule. Lets start with Leatham. Everyone likes to point out he won L-10 with a SS. Yes, he did. A wonderful accomplishment further securing his place in the IPSC Hall of fame. How many people other than him finished in the top 16 with a SS. I know Ron Avery did last year, but I'm not sure about this year, but I don't think anybody finished top 16 with a SS. I know of many shooters who like the feel of a SS better than fat guns, but don't want to concede the reloading advantage. The next example, Jerry Barnhart and the 2001 Nationals. Jerry shot a iron sighted open gun. He shot a very competitive match, but still finished 3rd. Would he have won with a dot instead of iron sights? I think he may have, but tough to prove. Jerry didn't have the right equipment and he lost, everything else being equal. Its a combination of both. The right equipment and the right skill level. A "fat gun" does has an advantage over SS's

The best reason I've heard for not changing the class is what to do about all the non 1911's who compete in L-10? I certainly don't want to squeeze them out by making it a SS only class and putting them in no-man's land. But why couldn't they just move to Production? Their (generalizing mode on) biggest gripe is not wanting to put out the money for pre-ban hi caps, yet they don't think twice about aftermarket match barrels, sights, mag wells, tungsten guide rods, fiber optic sights, etc.. They spend all this money making their L-10 glock competitive, but won't put out a little money for mags. You can have it one way or the other, but not both. If you want to be competitive without spending thousands of dollars, shoot production. If you want all the fancy race gear, shoot limited.

The real question I don't know how to deal with is the States with real crappy 10 rd. mag. limit laws. As you point out, even if the ban sunsets, your still screwed. Your only real choice would be Production. I don't know what to do for you guys. Our society is based on the axiom "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few." Now, I don't want to forget about the few, but I don't want the few dominating all decisions. Make L-10 a SS class. If you don't like it, go cheaper and shoot Production, or go expensive and shoot Limited. Just give me a moment to get my Nomex fire retardent suit on....ok, flame away

Erik

[Chuck D]

The needs of the many vs. the needs of the few huh?

Two of the most populated states (as far as USPSA members are concerned) are California and New York. Throw in Mass. and New Jersey and the few are unfortunately becoming "the many".

Keep THAT in mind when you throw us "under the bus" using the "I've got mine, too bad you don't have yours" logic.

As it is, the few DON'T dominate all the decisions. IF you have hi-caps...shoot Limited. If you don't...shoot L10. The idea that because you have a single stack L10 division should be excluseively for YOU is the problem. I don't advocate throwing you out of a division because I don't like the type of gun you use, what gives you the right to do it to me and others?

In a sport such as ours, we should be building bridges between fellow shooters to grow our ranks. There is NO reason why both SS and Fat Guns can't co-exist in L10. In every other division, you can use whatever brand/type/design firearm you wish...as long as it fits in the criteria of the rules. Why should L10 be the "affirmative action" example ?

[Flexmoney]

Bear1122,

A "fat gun" does has an advantage over SS's.

It is my opinion that the biggest advantage the "fat gun" has is that it is already in the hands of most of the top shooters. That is their every day practice gun. All their gear...all their loads...all their range time...EVERYTHING is geared toward them using that one platform. That is why you see them at the top. It is what they use.

From what I can gather, the big percieved advantage the "fat gun" has over the single-stack is the reload? I am trying to think back thru this year's Factory Gun National Stages. I'm sure I am missing something, but I just don't recall any stages that required a standing reload. There are classifers were a standing reload is required...

I don't think you can apply a "general rule" here. The shooters that are/were "in the hunt" for the win were most likely shooting fat guns. I don't think it is the other way around...they weren't "in the hunt" because of their equipment. Their equipment was just along for the ride...

Leatham "exception" to this, with his win with a single-stack at the 2002 FGN, is a pure example that it is the shooter.

And Barnhart's placing third without a dot...that again shows the talent and dedication of the shooter...equipment be damned.

If I were a single-stack shooter, looking to shave a tenth off my reload, I'd slap on one of those huge magwells and practice my butt off. I am pretty sure I wouldn't care what gun my competition was using.

"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few."

Ummm...there are lots of 1911 single-stack guns out there...but there are way more than "a few" of other ten round guns that fit the within Limited 10 (the Glock 40 being the prime example...they are everywhere).

The best reason I've heard for not changing the class is what to do about all the non 1911's who compete in L-10? I certainly don't want to squeeze them out by making it a SS only class and putting them in no-man's land. But why couldn't they just move to Production?

Are you serious?

Our society is based on the axiom "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few."

OMG. Do you realize what you just said??? I am not going to get into a true political discussion...and this isn't the place for it anyway, but that is not the motto of a free society!!! (If you feel like you need to respond to this portion, please do so off-board.)

[Loves2Shoot]

Just a general comment about being competive.

Most people who aren't "competive" in a match don't have their equiptment to blame, but more their lack of dedication and practice.

This being said, (I shot a $2600 limited gun in L10 once I got it built in April to finish off the points series) I didn't score significantly higher with it against my competion than my single stack .45.

http://www.oregonipsc.com/eps/reportipsc20...0standings.html

So for someone who has BTDT I think it means squat on 98% of the stages, but I would shoot the SV given the choice because I am now focused on Limited. I practice with it every day. When I was shooting my .45 every day I would rather have used it.

As far as the cost of race guns, I have spent money more $$$ on bullets, powder, primers and brass than guns, mags, reloaders etc.

[Bear1142]

Well, thats what I like to see. A few people that actually have some passion for the sport. Where to start? Ok, let's revisit the "Needs of the many" In my haste to make a point, maybe that statement should be revised to include "in a representative democracy". I thought that was how it worked. When the majority are in favor of an idea, they convey their positions to their representative (Area directors, Senators, Representatives, etc..) and when that representative realizes a majority of his constituents want him to vote a certain way, He does or he doesn't get reelected (all other politics aside). Look at the recent case with Major 9, enough people wanted it reinstated and they conveyed their thoughts and it the ban was removed. I don't see the "big brother" picture your trying to paint and I certainly didn't throw you under the bus.

Keep THAT in mind when you throw us "under the bus" using the "I've got mine, too bad you don't have yours" logic

I'm not sure what point your trying to make with the last statement, please clarify it.

I'm not advocating throwing anybody out of a division. Just bringing more consistency to the equipment rules. The fat guns have an advantage, period. I dont' care how big a mag well you put on a SS. Make the playing field level for everyone, not just the $2,500 dollar limited race guns.

Flexmoney-

I think your missing the point. The Barnhart examples goes to show that you need a certain level of equipment to be competitive. I agree it's a testament to his shooting ability to get that far, but a scope most likely would have given him the win. At that level, those guys don't settle for third, they want the win. Once again, these are the exceptions to the rule. Give an A or B class shooter an iron sighted open gun and see what happens at the Nationals. These top guys are the exception, not the mainstream. I will also have to partly disagree with you concerning your opinion that the reason the top guys do so well is the shooting platform. Five of the guys in the top 16 only shoot limited at this match. They shoot open year round. They are using different equipment, loads, gear, etc.. While I agree there is some familiarity, it's still a different gun. I also don't think there were any standing reloads, but there were many stages where you only had 1 or 2 steps. If you didn't nail it, you were standing. The fat guns had a greater margin of error than the SS guys. Is it a practice issue? Could be, depends on a couple of unknown factors

Am I serious about moving them to production?- Yep, I don't see any non 1911 not being competitive in production

Sorry, about the "needs" statement, I forgot the "representative democracy" part.

I guess we've kinda hi-jacked the thread from Vince, I'll readdress the question in another thread if you guys care to continue. I guess the issue I was trying to address was "What can we do to streamline the divisions?"

USPSA is having a difficult time maintaining the current formats. Its not just about money, its people (RO's), work, vacation leave, venues, manufactureres, etc.., we need to start looking to streamline. Where do you suggest we start? Do you think we should add a SS class. Every arguement Chuck D makes for keeping L-10 can be made for starting a SS Division. So what will it be?

[JFD]

I tend to agree that the main reason the fat gun is faster to reload is because the person using it is faster. In theory the bigger mag well is easier to hit, but a SS can be opened up to where it's no real disadvantage that I can see.

Locally speaking, I have a very small bay where I mostly run standards type mandatory reload stages. This is the only stage where my "C" class self and my SS L-10 gun has a chance of a top 3 finish, which I do fairly often. I've been performing SS reloads for 35 years, so standing reloads play to my only real strength.

I'm a firm believer that unless a person has achieved near 100% perfection in all competition/shooting skills, it's the shooter, not the equipment that matters most. I'd be happy to see L-10 left alone for those of us who enjoy it, and will happily compete against fat gun shooters without feeling disadvantaged. L-10 being changed to SS only wouldn't hurt my feelings any, but I'd rather see it left alone.

Screwing around with L-10 in the hope that those shooters will happily spend even more money to shoot Limited (or whatever reason a person could have) will do nothing more than reinforce the idea that a person needs a race gun to shoot USPSA. I've got enough local problems with that stupid perception from IDPA shooters and would hope USPSA shooters won't add to my problems. I'm working my butt off to keep USPSA alive at my club and need all the help I can get. Production and Limited 10 are both selling points for USPSA in my area.

[Flexmoney]

Bear,

Your logic eludes me.

I think your missing the point. The Barnhart examples goes to show that you need a certain level of equipment to be competitive.

No, it proves the exact opposite of the point you are trying to make (faulty assumption is that Jerry would have been the shoe-in winner). The fact that Jerry finished as high as third...even without a dot...at the NATIONALS...shows that it is the shooter, not the equipment.

The same goes for TGO winning L10 with a single-stack. I am fairly certain he practiced on that platform a time or two.

I'm not advocating throwing anybody out of a division.

Sure you are. You would send me off to play in Production with my Glock. I have news for you...I like the challenge of shooting Major with my tupperware.

The fat guns have an advantage, period. I dont' care how big a mag well you put on a SS.

Again...I don't think so. It is lack of practice, period. Seriously, even if this was and advantage of...what...a tenth of a second on a reload...how often does this come into play in a match? ...and at what level?

Make the playing field level for everyone, not just the $2,500 dollar limited race guns.

I feel safe in saying that if we only had ONE division...and that division was single-stack only...we would see plenty of single-stack guns in the $2500 range. (And, I'll bet they would have HUGE magwells.)

Am I serious about moving them to production?- Yep, I don't see any non 1911 not being competitive in production.

I don't want to shoot in Production with my Glock. I want to shoot major and beat up on STI's and SV's. Tell you what...why don't you sell YOUR 1911 and buy one of those S&W 945's (or whatever their double action 45 is) and YOU go shoot in Production.

Yeah...that's the ticket. I want Limited and Limited10 to be GLOCK ONLY divisions.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Well, as a new USPSA member and regular L10 shooter I'm gonna jump in and plead for the L10 and limited divisions to stay the way they are until gun laws and ENFORCEMENT of them forces a change. I truly believe that the future of the sport is dependant on bringing in new shooters and that is dependant for the most part on L10 and Production. Most new competitors will gravitate to whatever sport will allow them to be competitive with what they own today.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex: I have news for you...I like the challenge of shooting Major with my tupperware.

Flex,

Attaboy - you tell him. I love to shoot my G21 in Standard Division too, but I also shoot it in Production Division, despite the fact I'm still scored Minor eventhough I factor +190PF and I can only load 13+1.

My G21 happens to be the gun I shoot the best, probably because the bigger frame suits my big hands.

And, the bullets are slow & fat, not unlike the guy pulling the trigger

[Trey]

I second that motion. I'm with flex!!

Another happy glock shooter in L10.

I like shooting major.

I shoot my 35 in L10 and love it!

[Skywalker]

You plastic guys,

you are only blessed by one thing...

plastic is not biodegradable !

[vluc]

As we toot plasticus fantasticus, I'll jump in as well. I like shooting Production - minor, with my G34.

I like my new dabbling in L10, shooting minor, with my G34.

And as I like it more, I'll pop for a G35 and shoot major in L10 and then Limited.

Folks like me are the future of the sport. Give us more opportunities to come in and play at an acceptable level and acceptable price and the sport will grow.

Not everyone plays the game for the same reason. By allowing as many options as possible for as many new folks as possible, we open the door for more people to participate in a variety of ways...stage/course design, assistance at matches, etc.

It's the attitudes and behaviors of the other shooters that drive people away, not the inability to win every match. If my efforts to help are scorned or rejected, then I won't help. I'll still shoot, but I won't help. If I'm told I'm shooting a baby gun or a piece of crap, why do I want to go anywhere to listen to that drivel? Who cares what I shoot, as long as it makes me want to compete and play the game? if I want to take my SIG and run in Limited, my choice. Doesn't hurt you...heck, might help you win as I may place lower.

[Bear1142]

Flex, my man, you've done it. I've seen the light and I'm converted. It's about the shooter and practicing. I think you've got it. Now we really can do away with L-10. Originally, I just wanted to switch it over to SS class for any SS guns, not just 1911's. But now, I see we don't need L-10 at all. You guys with 10 round only states just need to practice your reloads more. As long as we make the stages 8 round neutral, and there's no advantage with reloads, I don't see the need for L-10 at all. Chuck D, you'd better start practicing (Sarcasm added)

Seriously, I have no real stake in the debate. I don't shoot L-10 and probably never will. Open, Limited, Production, and Three Gun (Open & Limited), keep me busy enough. Contrary to popular belief, I'm a big fan of the Glock. My 35 pulls double duty as my Production gun and a back up limited gun should the need arise and I do like seeing a Glock beat up on a S_I, as long as its not me.

The two examples I gave earlier do, I think illustrate my point. Robbie, he's the kinda guy that screws the curve. I granted you his exceptional performance, but still think you need to look past him. What is happening with everybody, not just TGO. Barnharts example is a good example of you (flex) and I looking at the half a glass of water and arguing whether it is half full or half empty. Once again, I don't see it being all the shooter. I'm not saying its a 50/50 split between shooter and equipment. I don't know what the ratio is, but it's a combination. It takes both to win. If it didn't, you would see a lot more iron sighted open guns. No batteries, no scope mounts, no zeroing problems, no dots fading in the sunlight, if there was a chance of winning open with an iron sighted gun, I'm there.

Well, it was a good thread run. I tried to champion the SS cause, but apparently the SS guys don't feel disadvantaged. I grabbed the flag and marched into proverbial battle, only to look behind me and see no one and hear nothing but crickets. I guess I was right about one thing. Looks like the "needs of the many" rose to the top again. Catch you guys on another thread.

Erik

P.S.- Flex- I did shoot Production this year. Did pretty good also.

[Chuck D]

Bear, maybe THIS will clarify things for you...

I made USPSA Master with a 20 year old Colt series 70 Gold Cup.

My "Wide Body" gun is relatively new and it's a 45...not a 40 caliber.

I STILL switch back and forth between the two guns for matches in L10 division.

Don't tell me you CAN'T be competitive with a Single Stack gun. The majority of the awards I've won have been with the Colt.

L10 exists for all shooters to enjoy (GLOCK EAA/Tanfoglio/STI/SVI/Para etc.)

Those whom think a SS is at a disadvantage are simply incorrect... Stop complaining and start practicing those reloads...the "disadvantage" you speak of simply "melts away".

Lets not forget why L10 was formed...to allow "LEGALLY OBTAINABLE" equiptment a place to compete without handicap. If a gun gets shipped from the factory with a 10 round mag in the factory box, it's L10 legal. Simple as that.

Lets not disassemble a division because USPSA feels the need to host numerous National Championships. In the spirit of your "needs of the many outnumber the needs of the few" theory...not ALL shooters attend the Nationals BUT the majority of the shooters compete on a local level where L10 is a popular alternative to buying pre-ban hi-cap magazines IF your allowed by law to do so.

To toss me out of a division I already support (that's VERY obvious) and participate in so SS only guys can have a place ALL THEIR OWN to play because they don't want to overcome the challenge of learning to reload with a weapon with a smaller mag well isn't "democratic". It smacks of favoritism and special preferences.

By the way Bear, I'm all practiced up and ready to go...with whatever gun I choose to use!

[Ron Ankeny]

Bear1142:

There comes a point when it does absolutely no good to try to debate the relative merits of one platform compared to another with people who are firmly entrenched in the "It ain't the arrow it's the Indian camp." I know a lot of folks who believe a single stack can be reloaded as fast as a wide body pistol, but I have never met a shooter who can reliably, day in and day out, reload a SS as fast as I can reload my fat guns. Fat guns are easier for the mainstream shooter to learn to reload than a SS and that's just the way it is. To believe other wise is purely delusional.

[spook]

Flex, you cannot win the Open Nationals with a 5 shot snubbie (it's technically possible, but you understand what I mean right?)

Bear, there is no difference in the time it takes a SS gun or a fat gun to reload if the thickness of the mag and the width of the magwell are the same.

You both have very good points, but are putting so much emphasis on just one side of the story (Flex on the shooter and Bear on the equipment), IMHO (and please guys, I'm not trying to flame anyone here. I think it's a great thread )

The rules will never be perfect, unfortunately. I would personally like to see a round limit in every division (except open maybe), because I think it is one factor that would make equipment more equal than all other factors put together (like BS tungsten parts and fancy "adjustable"sights ). That's also the reason I think IPSC should have a limited 10 division.

[lynn jones]

ericw

Do the Aussies have any handguns left to compete with? Or, is worrying about their new laws a moot point?

ericw, they are losing their guns in droves. they now can only have .38 cal and 5" barrels.

[Chuck D]

"To believe otherwise is purely delusional".

Yup, that "M" I earned with my SS Colt MUST be delusion.

What must one do to prove that you can overcome a perceived disadvantage?

Look up a-6676 in the USPSA Database and see for yourself if it's "delusional" or not.

The results speak for themselves.

[Nik Habicht]

"To believe otherwise is purely delusional".

Yup, that "M" I earned with my SS Colt MUST be delusion.

What must one do to prove that you can overcome a perceived disadvantage?

Look up a-6676 in the USPSA Database and see for yourself if it's "delusional" or not.

The results speak for themselves.

Chuck,

There's a flaw in your logic. Your position seems to be that you can reload a SS as fast as a wide-body. I'm sure that you're correct. The fact that you can do so can mean one of two things:

1. The advantage of a wide-body is perceived, and everyone can learn to reload a SS as well as they can reload a wide-body.

or

2. Your talents are exceptional in this regard and not everyone else can learn to load a SS as well as they can learn to reload a wide-body.

I think, that just because YOU don't see a difference in your reloads between platforms, doesn't necessarily mean that the two platforms stand on a level platform for the average (think C and B class) shooter who may not have the same talents you posess, and who doesn't spend the amount of time dry and live firing that it must have taken you to make Master.

Now, go beat up on those wide-body guys some more with a skinny gun.....

[Chuck D]

There is absolutely NO flaw in my logic...

If you knew me, you'd know that I have absolutely NO athletic ability what-so-ever. That means choice #1 applies in my case. It CAN be done, I know because I've done it. Others can too. I once was a C class shooter.

Success in my opinion ( and in my case) comes from hard work...nothing more, nothing less.

In response to "beating up others" with my old Colt...can it wait until I get my new SS Caspian ?

I'll give it my best efforts but if I continue to succeed at what I know can be done...what will the excuse be then ?

Thanks for the kind words about my abilities...even if they're for the most part untrue...they sounded good.

[Flexmoney]

Every equipment platform will have it's advantages and disadvantages.

Every shooter will have thier strengths and weaknesses.

[SmittyFL]

All right, this is going to be long, but myself and a shooting buddy have talked extensively about it, so I think there are some good points.

Make L-10 a "Single Stack" division. Much along the lines of the Single Stack Classic rules, but allow 10 round mags. Here is why:

I'm not sure of the main reason for starting the L-10 division. I've heard its to allow other countries like Canada and California to shoot our sport. I've also heard it was to bring new shooters into the sport without the expence of equipment. It doesn't really matter, my theory solves both.

1) There is really no place now for a single stack gun. Chuck, I know you are going to dissagree with this point but I think most people would agree that a fat gun is better than a single stack. Not only from the reload stand point, but also recoil control, and general ergonomics. (this point has been argued enough)

2) The main reason is the other guns in L-10 division, other than a 1911 type, can compete in other divisions. They can go to production and stay at 10 rounds or they can go to limited and do whatever they want. For example Glocks have been competitive in both Production and Limited. But a single stack can't go to production, and I don't care how fast you reload, you can't keep up with a 20 rd. limited gun.

3) A "Single Stack" division would, I think, be a true test of shooting ability. I think our sport is a true test now but with that type of division there would be NO equipment advantages. The guns would be as similar as is possible.

4) It will still bring new shooters into the sport, just as much as it currently does.

5) The poor folks that live in a state or country that doesn't allow high cap mags can shoot limited if they want fancy STI type guns. Their whole state or country is L-10 so it doesn't matter. If they want to shoot that type of gun at a national they can have mags waiting for them or borrow some from someone else.

6) I think this sport can be compared to drag racing. Open and Limited is like Top Fuel and Funny car. It is the very top of the sport, it is where the best times and scores are. Other people can compete in other divisions, be very competitive in their division, and have a great time doing it. But the top of the line in equipment and scores are Open and Limited.

I love this game as it is, I don't shoot L-10 much and don't shoot production at all. I enjoy shooting revolver when I want to just have fun. I would shoot a lot more L-10 if it were a single stack division. In fact that is what it should be.....I'm sure you all agree.

Smitty

[alphamike]

At the Factory Nats, Michael Voigt was saying that one proposed rules change he really likes, and will push for, is to make the holster/mag pouch(es) rule in Lim-10 the same as Production. I could see it.

I'm just curious as to what the benefit would be to changing L-10 to production rules as to holster and mag placement. Sure it would drive out the unwashed hordes of Widebodyites and their fancy race holsters but it would also make me less competitive in club matches where I have to shoot against said wideheads with my simon pure SS. At the club matches that I shoot the overall finish is the important thing. I've never been to a match that offered a pin

I don't think I'm giving up much as far as reloads go. I try not to do standing relaods anyway. But if I have to reach around to the small of my back during a 32 round field course...yeah, that will suck.