Limited 10 Vs Limited

[Chuck D]

I usually can find one compelling point in just about any argument but SmittyFL's comments allow me no opportunity to do so.

First, my gun choice is to "ergonomic" for L10 division. Oh really?

Secondly, If I or another shooter from a 10 round only state want to shoot a Nationals or another "big match" we must be forced to "borrow" magazines?

Oh really ?

It astounds me that people can be so "shortsighted" that they would displace everyone that either resides in a 10 round only State or would happen to enjoy owning and using non-1911 style platform pistols so they can created IPSC' version of affirmative action for 1911 SS owners because they ( not all of them but the ones whom "cry" excessively) are either too lazy or to disinterested in learning the art of the reload. Don't bother working on it...you MAY get good at reloading that SS and discredit your own theory (God forbid that would happen).Never mind the fact that others have improved their technique..."whining" would be a hell of alot easier to do.

Is it just me or has others noticed that the ones pushing SO hard to displace current L10 shooters don't " SHOOT L10 VERY MUCH"?

If L10 goes by the wayside because of THIS reason...so shall I.

What a way to grow the membership...give safe haven to SS shooters and displace everyone else whom enjoyed or needed an L10 division but wasn't lucky enough to buy and use a SS pistol.

[John Dunn]

My main complaint about taxes (besides paying too much, of course) is that the laws keep changing depending on the political wind each year or so. Drives me nuts.

My vote is to leave the divisions the way they are. Keith Tyler won Limited 10 at Area 1 with a singlestack and didn't look too handicapped to me. It's been pointed out that TGO has won with a singlestack as well. If we have to downsize divisions the obvious choice is revolver, but I would hate to see it go.

I don't see any reason to change equipment position in L-10, in fact, I think you should be able to put your gear where you want it in production too. People rail about stages not being freestyle, why should equipment positioning not be freestyle as well? Can't see the advantage to changing L-10 positioning rules now.

[BerettaRacer]

Smitty,

Sorry but I've got to disagree, I think you and a few others have a bad case of 1911 tunnel vision. If you make L 10 a SS division you've just eliminated virtually all modern guns, Beretta, Glock, Sig, EAA, etc. etc. There are other people out there who want to shoot something besides some 1911 or clone.

[Ron Ankeny]

Chuck D:

I didn't mean to rattle your cage too hard, lol. The comment about "delusional" was in reference to the motto of the forum, Maku mozo. Perhaps I am the deluded one? FWIW, and it probably isn't much, I finished shooting my way into Limited Master last year with a single stack. I am currently shooting a Les Baer PII in both Limited and Limited 10.

Like I said in reply to one of Kyle's posts, leave the divisions the way they are now. But I can still load a fat gun faster than a skinny one, lol.

[Chuck D]

So Ron...I appreciate that you helped prove the point that SS shooters, using the time honored traditions of hard work and effort CAN succeed in L10 without a hi-cap framed pistol.

Maybe NOW the point can be made w/o providing "special circumstances" or displacing members that already enjoy a necessary and effective division.

Glad you find me amusing...I find myself committed to the preservation of L10 division for the very reason it was developed in the first place, to allow competitiors to purchase LEGALLY OBTAINABLE equiptment at their local gun shops and use it for competition purposes without handicap.

Gotta Go Now....The men in white coats have just arrived...

[alphamike]

I usually can find one compelling point in just about any argument but alphamike's comments allow me no opportunity to do so.

First, my gun choice is to "ergonomic" for L10 division. Oh really?

Secondly, If I or another shooter from a 10 round only state want to shoot a Nationals or another "big match" we must be forced to "borrow" magazines?

Oh really ?

Huh?

I think my point was that I'm against screwing up L-10 up by mandating a holster/mag position. I didn't say anything about any of that other stuff.

[Chuck D]

Please accept my apologies alphamike. I did not mean to make the mistake.

Although I have STRONG opinions in regards to this subject, I mean no disrespect to anyone but the idea of exclusion doesn't sit well with me.

[j1b]

<deleted post - don't want to upset friends on BE.com>

[SmittyFL]

Ok, here we go.

Chuck: For the record, I would be fine if they didn't change any of the divisions. But if they do, I would like to see a single stack division and L-10 would be MY choice division to change. I'm not trying to bust your chops, I'm just trying to back up my opinion. In your sarcastic response you didn't comment on my other reasons, the other guns have a place to go, and having the SS division would be a true "non equipment race" division.

Also since you are so quick to point out your class and number, I did look at your scores. Just for the heck of it I'm going to throw this out. I'm not busting on you so don't get all pissed off. Just take what I'm saying into consideration, we'll probably still dissagree anyway.

Of the 4 classifers you have on record that are master class scores one of them has 1 standing reload. One of them has 1 standing reload in a 4 string stage. Of the other two; one doesn't have a reload at all and one has 1 reload while moving to another box. Point is the reload didn't come much into play on these specific stages. Maybe that means nothing, maybe you still beat all the fat guns in L-10 at the matches you go to.

BerettaRacer:

I'm not eliminating the other "modern" guns. They could go to production. Those are the specific guns the division was made for.

Look, I and some others on this board prefer 1911's; Beretta and some other shooters don't. Obviously we're not going to agree on this. I guess that's why we have rule committee's.

Shoot Safe

DVC

Smitty

[Loves2Shoot]

Having the SS division would be a true "non equipment race" division.

Huh, "don't be deluded"

You can spend as much on a SS as a full race S_I widebody. Besides, the arms race is more a falicy than a reality. If your gun shoots a decent group, has a decent trigger, and fits you, you will most likely never shoot up to it's capabilty.

FYI a gun that can rip out .15 splits vs. .2 splits in el prez will give you a whopping 3.4 points extra (and this assumes you could shoot all A's with .15 splits, which very few can, and most can shoot .2 splits) Great shooting isn't all about fast splits, it is more about making the hard shots the fastest.

So enough with the "arms race" already, besides if you make it a "from the factory" class, factories will make suped up guns for IPSC ala HK, Glock, Kimber, Tangfolio, and a few more and they will be expensive.

[Flexmoney]

SmittyFL,

Your data on ChuckD's classifiers is proof that the gun (and it's ease of reloading) is hardly ever a factor.

Of the 4 classifers you have on record that are master class scores one of them has 1 standing reload. One of them has 1 standing reload in a 4 string stage. Of the other two; one doesn't have a reload at all and one has 1 reload while moving to another box. Point is the reload didn't come much into play on these specific stages. Maybe that means nothing, maybe you still beat all the fat guns in L-10 at the matches you go to.

Point is the reload didn't come much into play on these specific stages.

Exactly.

Now, don't get me wrong...reloads are a huge part of what we do. Even more so in L10, Production and Revolver. I just don't think that a tenth or two as you leave a shooting position will slow a shooter down in a stage. Maybe it will. But, I certainly don't think that the difference (perceived or real*) justifies a seperate division.

* Perception is reality

[SmittyFL]

L2S,

I agree 100% with your post, my bone stock Kimber can shoot much better than I can. But as I said in my previous post, if there were a SS division the guns would be "as similar as possible". I think, or at least I get the feeling of an even playing field when I shoot a single stack match. I just think its kinda fun.

[Duane Thomas]

I don't see any reason to change equipment position in L-10, in fact, I think you should be able to put your gear where you want it in production too. People rail about stages not being freestyle, why should equipment positioning not be freestyle as well? Can't see the advantage to changing L-10 positioning rules now.

The reason for the holster/mag pouch position rule in Production was to allow shooters to compete with less expensive, readily available carry-type holsters. There's no speed advantage to a spendy IPSC race rig versus a carry holster when you have to put them both behind the hip. The reason to change the holster position in L10 would be to bring it into alignment with Production, and, again, lower the buy-in for new shooters. Besides, after watching Dave Sevigny at the Factory Nats whip everybody in L10 except Todd Jarrett - and at that he was only 11 points off TJ's pace - with his gun carried in a Ky-Tac concealment holster, I can't believe we'll be sacrificing much by having holsters that cost $65 instead of twice as much.

All I shoot in USPSA in Limited-10. I love the division. But I think I'm going to hang up the Safariland race rig and start competing with my everyday Blade-Tech carry holster. And I bet it'll be a lot of fun - not to mention having much less risk of dropping the gun out of the holster.

[Chuck D]

If certain aspects of the "shooting population" were SO worried about conditions being as "fair" and "equal" as they possibly could...why don't USPSA or your local club invest in a number of identical guns and everybody use THEM to compete in their matches?

We could take this lunacy as far as we can stretch our perception of reality but sooner or later the absurd shows through.

Me, I'd rather embrace "diversity". L10 is now home for Glocks, Beretta's Widebodies, 1911's etc.....

That's how it was designed to work. It's by far the most successful of all the new divisions.

Of course we just CAN'T seem to accept this...and leave well enough alone.

If 1911 only matches are SO popular and are SO in demand then why isn't there a plethora of SS only matches to attend? I know of only one "major" match. Surely the desire to compete with equiptment of like manufacturer ( and of course that dreaded tini-tiny-microscopic mag well opening) must be greater that this? (sarchasm added and intended).

Certain opinions would have me abandon my favourite division to make room for SS only "safe haven".

I'm not going to be pushed out THAT easily...nor will I go quietly.

[Duane Thomas]

Honestly, I don't see Lim-10 becoming a single-stack only division. I know a lot of people would like that, but I just can't see it happening. I could be wrong, just MHO. The holster position rule, OTOH, I could see that happening. And I think, by and large, it would be a good thing.

[John Dunn]

Duane,

Thanks for explaining the rational for the production placement rules. I still hope it doesn't come to L-10 as I compete with a Blade-Tech positioned forward of the midline and like it there. Even when I carry I do not comply with prod. placement rules. If people get to the point that they honestly feel their holster is keeping them down, they are probably ready to buy a race holster. Mostly I hate change for less than compelling reasons. The hope of making things marginally better for the few who fret about others gear is not worth the trauma of rules changes that would force people to switch divisions or radically alter their hard practiced draws and reloads.

I want everyone to open their windows and yell, "Leave the divisions alone!"

[Sterling White]

Vince and others....

Could the production platform include single stack guns in 40 or 45 caliber...lets say your off the shelf Colt, Kimber, or other basic 1911 guns but have both major and minor power factors?

Just curious....

Sterling

[jhgtyre]

The problem with allowing the 1911's, and other single action pistols, in Production is that they would quickly become THE guns to shoot and squeeze out the rest. The Glock crowd can put up a good fight but that would be about it.

-ld

[AikiDale]

Vince,

I have not lived through all the history of the various divisions. I have been shooting in USPSA for only one year now. I started with a single stack 1911 and shot limited-10 and thought it should be limited-8. I purchased a limited double wide and shot limited for a while. Now I have pretty much settled into shooting limited-10 with the double stack Kimber. (My reloads are still slow enough I can fumble equally well with either the single or double stack.) [/history]

I would leave the divisions just the way they are. They offer a lot of choice for a new shooter. The gun you already have will fit somewhere and when you want to spend more money for a fun gun rather than shoot "old reliable" in competition you have several choices. And I would keep revolver! The revolver shooters are doomed to standing reloads in most courses (4, 6 round arrays would be as much fun as 3, 8 round arrays? ) but they are competing against other revolver shooters so the playing field is level. When the hi-cap ban goes away next year Limited-10 still offers a place for the shooter with a 1911 and 4, 8 round magazines to get into the sport.

If any changes were going to be made, (remember I said not to change a thing! ) one could argue that the U.S. rules should be the same as the international rules so that we would all be training for the same game in international competition. But the U.S. has always been different. Its who we are. Otherwise we would still be subjects of the crown. And the slight difficulty we may impose upon ourselves by having different rules just makes it so much more glorious when we win internationally.

[j1b]

God - this could go on for centuries.

I believe the USPSA has too many divisions, I also believe we shouldn't change a thing.

If there is one thing we should all keep in mind - it is trying to get new shooters into the sport. Forget our own agendas, and what a rule change would mean to us. I would like to think we are all so passionate about the sport that we would adapt, and change to whatever it took to continue to shoot. This is evidenced by our friends in Canada.

You can spend money on any heater - single stack, glock, double wide, single action revolver, derringer - I don't care - money can be spent on all and is everyday. Who cares. The equipment race is IN THE HEAD, not in the heater.

We can change. We are all hooked. The focus (IMO) of this thread needs to stray away from the who's what's why's and when's. We need to focus on growth, on insuring we have something to shoot in the future. That can only be impacted by NEW shooters.

I hate to sound critical (I've deleted one post already) but Jeez! This thread seems to have discussed theory, and impact to ourselves a hell of a lot more than it has discussed how we can recruit new shooters and make this sport an easier pill to swallow.

Truly - who cares if you have to shoot your new Para .40 in lim-10 if everyone else does. Maybe you're pissed for a bit, but maybe you get over it. Everytime we "ask" a new shooter to build a mag that holds more than ten rounds we are asking that person to commit a felony - is that right?

I would ask that we re-focus this thing (if you will allow me to Vince) on insuring that what we have set up is going to grow the sport. The net impact on us???? We get to continue to shoot - let's count our blessings from there.

JB

[AikiDale]

God - this could go on for centuries.

Now that would give me time to make GM!

[JFD]

I don't really see that L-10 is only a stepping stone to "better" divisions anyway, but it is more likely to attract new shooters. I plan on sticking with L-10 until it's eventual (the way this thread looks) ruin.

I'm a relative newbie to USPSA and my impression of L-10 was that my SS fit the division nicely, mags are inexpensive, and basically I have a lot of freedom when it comes to equipment. It's like heaven on earth compared to IDPA. I wouldn't shoot in any division with IDPA type equipment rules, so obviously I'll never shoot Production. L-10 keeps the mags legal and inexpensive. Throw out the legality factor and it's still good because a person can be competitive with or without spending a fortune, yet still experience the freedom of Limited and Open. That freedom includes contending with fat guns or whatever else anyone can shoot within the rules of the division. Makes it more interesting for the vast majority of us who know we aren't M or GM class material.

If L-10 ended up merged with Production with the stupid minor only scoring, few mods, and IDPA holster/mag pouch restrictions, then I may as well shoot IDPA CDP where I don't have to shoot powderpuff .45 loads to be competitive. The stages may suck and I'd have to hear the word "tactical" way too much, but at least I wouldn't be punished for not shooting an Open or Limited gun. To me, IDPA type rules definitely count as punishment when applied to USPSA.

[Run n Gun]

Okay, I guess it’s time to wade in here. I agree with just about everything JFD has said.

No ones asking (everybody knows L-10 guys opinions are not to be seriously considered) but if I were put in charge, and told to trim a division, it would be open.

Imagine coming to a “practical” shooting match where you were actually expected to have to reload (gasp) or align iron sights (shutter) just like the other 99.9999999999% of the world! Where you’d have to plan your reloads, where you might experience (be sure there’s no children in the room now) recoil and muzzle rise! IMHO open division is an anachronism, at the very best a parody of practical shooting. In addition to dumping open I would limit everyone to 10 round magazines and return the power factor to 175.

Or, we could just leave things as they are.

I’ll tell you this though; I got into USPSA to shoot my single stack, and if you mess with L-10 I’ll simply send Sedro Woolley my card back and, like JFD, go shoot IDPA.

Ed

[LPatterson]

My 2 cents, I shoot Limited 10 because a 1911 style gun fits my hand better than a double stack. I have a Glock 21C that I shoot occasionally in Open division because that was the cheapest way for me to shoot Open. Having said that, I would say that I have now spent over $2000 in modifications on the 1911 not counting the 12 10 round magazines. If I wanted a better Open gun badly enough I could probably find the money to buy one.

If IPSC & USPSA needs to change any division rules it may be in Production as other countries adopt the 10 round magazine rule. If the AWB ended tomorrow, California & Massachusetts would still have 10 round bans in effect that could probably never be changed as long as Democrats are in office.

[Vince Pinto]

Sterling,

Although I'm not King of IPSC, it is my opinion that single-action-only pistols will never be allowed in IPSC Production Division, because the primary criteria was to create a division where they are specifically excluded.

j1b,

Your preference to devote far more time to membership growth (and retention) has my full support and I can tell you that, internationally, Production Division is our rising star, because (cheaper) guns available from mainstream manufacturers are totally competitive.