IPSC Proposal for Mandatory Reloads

[ChuckS]

What benefit would there be to this rule?

From the GA agenda*

"Introducing reloads will bring back challenges, excitement, and skills lost over time plus serve to re-energize our matches."

I guess we have had easy, boring stages that take no skills.

Later,

chuck

* I copied that from the Global Village at

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?s=&...ost&p=77930

The poster said it was from the agenda. I do not know where to find the actual agenda so I will assume this is genuine.

[Mapzter]

The cure (mandatory reloads for all divisions) is much worse than the disease (capacity race in Production) IMHO.

[Mapzter]

The poster said it was from the agenda. I do not know where to find the actual agenda so I will assume this is genuine.

The agenda was posted by Vince Pinto here: http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=7632

[Merlin Orr]

Make everybody quit posting about how to cram one more round in a mag....Huh.....?

Meanwhile... Back to my mag change practice.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

I think someone already said it... not only no, but HELL no.

I primarily shoot limited 10, single stack and production, so this would not even apply to me, but geesh. (quoting the uspsa classification manual) "Practical shooting is distinct from other shooting disciplines in that the responsibility for determining the best, safe solution to the problem presented by a course of fire is the competitor’s. In other words, practical shooting intends to test the ability to think in addition to testing the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately."

If we are going to make mandatory reloads on medium and long courses, them what is the point in having 6 divisions. You would only need 3. Open, Revolver and limited.

This kind of defeats the purpose of "bring what you have and shoot it." It will once again become a sport dominated (granted it still is, but not badly) by he who has the most bells and whistles.

Frank

[George Jones]

Although a good discussion subject for those folks who shoot under the IPSC rulebook, USPSA shooters need not get too exited over this. I doubt very much the USPSA BOD would seriously consider a similar change to our rulebook.

[shred]

I think it's a poor idea as well. Show me the Open and Standard shooters that can't reload. It's not like they don't do them at all.

It sounds to me like it was written by a low-level shooter.. I see that occasionally in new stage designers "I have to reload, so everybody else should too" or "I'll make the stage 33 rounds so everybody has to reload". The excitement and challenge is a stage you can, maybe do without an extra reload.. then you have to decide if you want to do one or not and if your competition will...

[Johann the Horrible]

As always I will be swimming upstream on this.(And probably be soundly beaten about the head for it. ) Making mandatory mag changes, well mandatory, will add another hurdle for us to overcome. Sure gamesmen will find loopholes and we will moan and groan about it but after a while it will be part of the Practical landscape just like missing on targets closer that 1 meter from us.

What it will do is make the sport more affordable and make more guns competitive. Why does everyone and his brother shoot a 40 in Standard Division?(I think you guys call it Limited- gun fits box). My answer is because you can get 20 rounds into a 40 and only 17 into a 45. This rule change will make the 45 more competitive. The guy shooting his Tanfoglio compact will also be more competitive in production. (IPSC rules limit you to OEM spec mags). Generally this proposed rules will force us to consider out tactics with greater care and make the sport(to me at least) more interesting. I just wish they changed all this before I spent a fortune on my mags making a complete idiot out of me. If I rather spent my money on practice I would have been better prepared for the proposed change.

[Graham Smith]

I fear that this is a well intentioned solution in search of a problem.

The mag capacity progression as it exists now makes perfect sense from almost every point of view. If they seriously believe that Open has become too Open, then create an Open 15 or Open 20 division that limits mag capacity.

[outerlimits]

and don't get me started on limited 10 open shotgun

[Gary Stevens]

Man I have been waiting on this discussion.

Makes those BOD members who advocated the "dual track" approach look pretty good. Wait did I type that out loud......

[CenTX]

What benefit would there be to this rule?

From the GA agenda*

"Introducing reloads will bring back challenges, excitement, and skills lost over time plus serve to re-energize our matches."

I guess we have had easy, boring stages that take no skills.

Later,

chuck

Plus the Open shooters missed most of the fun at this years Nationals ethat was enjoyed by the L10s having to clean the mud out of their mags or doing tactical reloads.

[BritinUSA]

Lately I've started using 20 round magazines in my Open Tanfoglio... I like the size of the magazines (they make it easier to reload). I didn't have issues with it at Nationals (but then I do have 1 x 23 round magazine).

As I said above, if this is to solve an issue with production then change the rules only for production. This violates the principles surrounding Open division.

[warpspeed]

I'm not really sure how I feel on this but I can see both sides. Clearly IPSC sees a problem to be fixed that we, USPSA, don't seem to have.

I don't see requiring a reload as being all that much different than requiring a certain gun position at the start. The argument of "freestyle" would say that I should be able to start with the gun where ever I thought was best and still safe on every CoF. I think by leaving the reload location up to the competitor makes it freestyle enough. I've never had a problem with the equipment race stuff but there are those who do.

I think that if this were to be adopted, those who would like to see 9x19 or 38 super being allowed as a major caliber in Std or Ltd would have zero opposition.

[JThompson]

Man I have been waiting on this discussion.

Makes those BOD members who advocated the "dual track" approach look pretty good. Wait did I type that out loud......

They keep up that crap and the vote about airgun and I think divergence is a better word.

[lynn jones]

i don't like this at all. this is leading to the idpa type of stage.

uspsa course of fire: upon start signal engage all targets as they become visible.

ipsc course of fire: upon start signal engage all targets as they become visible, except after engaging t1-t6 make a reload, then engage t7-t13, then make another reload and engage t14-t16.

lynn

next they'll make virginia count field courses.

[George Jones]

(Somewhat off-topic for the IPSC rulebook)

USPSA did clarify the allowances given to Level I matches when the new blue book was issued. One of those specific allowances was the authority to specify mandatory reloads in short and meduim courses of fire (not allowed in long courses). That was intended to give some flexibility to those local matches which face challenges such as small bays or indoor ranges. When the rules were being discussed, we specifically did not extend that allowance to long courses because it would stretch freestyle too far. So, local matches can specify reloads as long as the COF does not require more than 16 rounds.

I find it somewhat puzzling that IPSC, who dove headlong into freestyle 10 years ago, would consider mandatory reloads across the board.

[Johann the Horrible]

lynn

next they'll make virginia count field courses.

You say that as if it is a bad thing.

[Cardinal]

You say that as if it is a bad thing.

Are you kidding?

Mandatory mag changes and virginia count? You might as well also specify where the competitor are to stand when shooting at the different targets as the concept of freestyle is gone....

Edit: Spelling

Edited September 25, 2008 by Cardinal

[XRe]

We used to have VC field courses

I don't see why IPSC is opposed to mag capacity limits to keep Production platform competitive. They encouraged the current situation by allowing full capacity anyway... I would think limiting mags to, say, 15 rounds, would make things pretty even, and still allow a reasonable capacity in the guns... The US 10 round rule isn't exactly horrible, either...

If you want to force more reloads in Open, start limiting mags further, but otherwise, don't jerk it around.

As far as .40 vs. .45, many folks (myself included) find the .40's recoil profile more desirable than the .45 for game purposes. Even at equal capacity, I'll take the .40 every time.

I'd be far more concerned, though, about other items I see on that agenda

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Bad idea - agree it's a slippery slope. An answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

[outerlimits]

would love to see the agenda, but u have to register there?

[XRe]

would love to see the agenda, but u have to register there?

Yup. Mr. Pinto is a bit of a control freak

[JThompson]

26) Introducing reloads in Medium and Long Courses

"A gun is part of a system that includes the gun, the ammunition, the way to reload, and the way to carry and, most important of all, how to best use the system." Jeff Cooper

There has hardly been a General Assembly where magazine capacity in some form or another has not been an issue. Originally, the order of the day was to impose restrictions on the magazines themselves. In Open Division, these restrictions arbitrarily limited magazine length by measuring. In Standard and Modified Divisions, magazines were restricted by inserting them in the pistol before putting the pistol in the IPSC Box. Production Division is currently in a state of ammunition capacity turmoil.

Restricting the magazines themselves or arbitrarily limiting the number of rounds loaded is the wrong path.

Simply introducing one reload anywhere in Medium stages, and two reloads anywhere in Long stages, will make all these issues go away. Questions of magazine length, size, capacity, shape and form all vanish.

Eliminating all magazine restrictions, and adding the challenge of reloading will mean that more styles of pistols will become competitive including the beloved single-stack models.

No doubt, one may bring up the question of 'freestyle'. Freestyle means that competitors are free to think and to solve challenges in the manner they choose. Adding reloads to Medium and Long courses of fire is not ordering competitors where, when, or how to reload.

With no restrictions whatsoever on magazines, no competitors are disadvantaged and all existing magazines can continue to be used without any problems.

Introducing reloads will bring back challenges, excitement, and skills lost over time plus serve to re-energize our matches.

35. Motion

That the 2009 Edition of the IPSC Handgun Rules include the following revisions:

1.2.1.2 "Medium Courses" must not require more than 16 rounds to complete nor require more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. Competitors must, after firing at least one round and before firing their final round, minimally complete one reload, failing which one Procedural Penalty will be assessed.

1.2.1.3 "Long Courses" must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view. Competitors must, after firing at least one round and before firing their final round, minimally complete two reloads, failing which one Procedural Penalty will be assessed for each reload not completed.

Open Division

8. No maximum magazine length

Standard, Modified & Production Divisions

8. No maximum magazine length

Standard & Modified Divisions

16. A handgun in its ready condition (See Section 8.1), but unloaded, must fit wholly within the confines of a box which has internal dimensions of 225mm x 150mm x 45mm (tolerance of +1 mm, -0 mm). When a handgun is inserted into the box, rear adjustable sights may be slightly depressed, but all other features of the handgun, (e.g. collapsible and/or folding sights, slide rackers, thumb rests, external hammers, grips etc), must be fully extended or deployed.

Production Division

19.2 will be deleted

20.1 will be deleted

Edited September 25, 2008 by JThompson

[Mapzter]

Also up here: http://www.dsf.dk/nyheder/ipsc/1419-dagsor...l-assembly-2008

No registration needed.