IPSC Proposal for Mandatory Reloads

[Skywalker]

I don't want to comment on the proposed change, as I have mixed feelings about this.

What I want to point out is that (IMHO) a mandatory reload to be performed between the first and the last shot is no more against freestyle concept as Charge and Fault lines are.

They're there to restrict unreasonable movements towards targets, or to add a shooting challenge (shooting from behind a barricade or wall), but you're free to shoot from wherever you like behind the lines, close, distant, leaning, standing upright, you just have to be behind them; if it's about freestyle, why should you be bounded to shoot from behind a wall, and not be allowed to step aside to get a better view of the targets?

Similarly, having to reload adds to the shooting challenge, but you're free to do it whenever and wherever it suits you the most.

Having said this, even though I would love the idea of bringing back the reloading skill in practical shooting (which is now perishing in almost any IPSC division except revolver), I'm not sure this new rule wouldn't create more problems thant it solves.

[Cardinal]

So.......Im the only one that thinks this is the best idea ever??

no, there are a few misguided shooters like you But thankfully, you seem to be in the minority if going by whats posted on the forums.

Though I fear it will pass the GA...

[Cardinal]

Having said this, even though I would love the idea of bringing back the reloading skill in practical shooting (which is now perishing in almost any IPSC division except revolver), I'm not sure this new rule wouldn't create more problems thant it solves.

Thats easy.

Build more 32 round courses, there everyone will have to reload. Havnt seen a 31+1 170mm legal mag yet. Or keep the 170mm rule in Open and then up the maximum number of rounds in a Long courses from 32 to 35 or 36 to make sure.

Edited: Small correction

Edited September 26, 2008 by Cardinal

[Chris Keen]

Did I say HELL NO YET ?!?

[Glen517]

Okay if Chris and Bill didn't say it loud enough HELL NO STUPID IDEA !!!!!!!!

[JThompson]

I don't want to comment on the proposed change, as I have mixed feelings about this.

What I want to point out is that (IMHO) a mandatory reload to be performed between the first and the last shot is no more against freestyle concept as Charge and Fault lines are.

They're there to restrict unreasonable movements towards targets, or to add a shooting challenge (shooting from behind a barricade or wall), but you're free to shoot from wherever you like behind the lines, close, distant, leaning, standing upright, you just have to be behind them; if it's about freestyle, why should you be bounded to shoot from behind a wall, and not be allowed to step aside to get a better view of the targets?

Similarly, having to reload adds to the shooting challenge, but you're free to do it whenever and wherever it suits you the most.

Having said this, even though I would love the idea of bringing back the reloading skill in practical shooting (which is now perishing in almost any IPSC division except revolver), I'm not sure this new rule wouldn't create more problems thant it solves.

If you want to reload you have SS, Pro, L10... All of those force you to reload several times on the longer courses lest you have to do a static reload. Open and to a lesser extent Limited are about balls to to the wall "run what you brung" top fuel dragsters. I hate that you are anyone is trying to tell me I'm going to fast or I am missing something by not reloading. We start mandating all this crap we might as well have only one class.

I'm against any incremental BS that will lead down the road to killing high cap mags and eventially bring are sport to some PC ghost of what it once was. Many countries have little or no gun rights as it is and it chaps my ass that some people would have all of us shooting airsoft at the VFW. I'm not pointing a finger at you Luca, you just got the rant started.

JT

Edited September 26, 2008 by JThompson

[spook]

[...] I would love the idea of bringing back the reloading skill in practical shooting[...]

Luca, I honestly believe for some stages/shooters it will be more worthwhile to eat the one or two penalties for not reloading at all on super high hitfactor stages...

This of course depends on the stage design, but -10 vs. +20 for shooting 4 A's in the time it takes to reload is easy math

[JThompson]

[...] I would love the idea of bringing back the reloading skill in practical shooting[...]

Luca, I honestly believe for some stages/shooters it will be more worthwhile to eat the one or two penalties for not reloading at all on super high hitfactor stages...

This of course depends on the stage design, but -10 vs. +20 for shooting 4 A's in the time it takes to reload is easy math

Hell, don't worry about that Spook... we'll just rewrite the way we score to compensate.

Edited September 26, 2008 by JThompson

[spook]

[...] I would love the idea of bringing back the reloading skill in practical shooting[...]

Luca, I honestly believe for some stages/shooters it will be more worthwhile to eat the one or two penalties for not reloading at all on super high hitfactor stages...

This of course depends on the stage design, but -10 vs. +20 for shooting 4 A's in the time it takes to reload is easy math

Hell, don't worry about that Spook... we'll just rewrite the way we score to compensate.

LOL!

Or we could go the FTDR route. That worked out just fine didn't it...?

[Skywalker]

I'm not pointing a finger at you Luca, you just got the rant started.

I wonder why?

I just stated that I have mixed feelings about this proposal, I'm not in favour nor against it.

I did state, however, I don't buy the "it's not freestyle" objection, since there are several other rules (e.g. fault and charge lines) that could be deemed to be against this principle, and we all accept them, since they add to the shooting challenge while still leaving room to creativity.

I also stated that in Open, Modified, Standard and (IPSC) Production, the reloading skill is perishing, since I (shooting PD and SD) only reload an average of 3 times in a 10 stages match, and I used myself as an example, being the above applicable to almost any IPSC competitor. BTW, we don't have Lim-10 and Singlestack in IPSC, and Prod is exactly in the same boat as Standard when it comes to mag capacity, we already have 19+1 guns...

Edited September 26, 2008 by Skywalker

[RePete]

I live in the land of HiCap mags pinned to 10 (Canada) so we have a level playing field in that area, but I think this is not the way to go.

What's next? Telling us the way to shoot the COF? Then they can take away 'FREESTYLE' from the rule book completely.

This is the slippery slope as previously mentioned.

This can and will drive people away from the sport not attract them. I think that I would leave IPSC and join USPSA and up my travel expenses to trip down there.

FWIW the designer CAN control the number of reloads required in a COF, to a degree.

Edited September 26, 2008 by RePete

[Skywalker]

Luca, I honestly believe for some stages/shooters it will be more worthwhile to eat the one or two penalties for not reloading at all on super high hitfactor stages...

This of course depends on the stage design, but -10 vs. +20 for shooting 4 A's in the time it takes to reload is easy math

Bjorn,

you may be right, and this is why the whole issue will be discussed and voted by the General Assembly.

To all those that think vehemently objecting a proposal (and maybe using inappropriate words) is the way to go: having the proposal brought to the attention of the assembly is the most democratic way to handle things.

You might not like the idea, but you can't prevent somebody asking to discuss it: it's called freedom of speech in democracy.

If you feel so strongly about a subject, have your delegate knowing your opinion and let him vote (after all he is your democratically elected delegate) and be ready to accept the majority vote, even if this is against your personal opinion.

I think a discussion (at any level) shall be civil and respectful, among polite people.

[Jim Norman]

If I recall correctly this started out as a way to stop the Production Capacity race. In USPSA we limit the loaded rounds to 10 in a mag after the start. IPSC does not. What happens is IPSC Production is a 9mm hi-cap division, in USPSA it is a any legal caliber any allowed gun division. IPSC does not want to cap the capacity as that could have a negative effect in some regions. How does one then stop the equipment race? Simple require a reload.

I am not adverse to this in Production. I really don't have a problem with it in Production and don't see where allowing a course designer to allow this in a COF is so bad. I would limit non-Production requirement to one in a match.

As an aside I would definitely allow this is in Rifle. With 30, 45 and Beta mags reloading is becoming a lost skill. And it does affect the match. Limited or Tactical division should be capped in some manner.

In all cases I support the reload after the first shot and prior to engaging the last target.

On the subject of target, 100% No Way should we lose the Metric. If SASS has growth and political acceptance why wouldn't we? SASS shoots at steel cutouts that actually resemble people and animals!

Jim

[spook]

To all those that think vehemently objecting a proposal (and maybe using inappropriate words) is the way to go: having the proposal brought to the attention of the assembly is the most democratic way to handle things.

You might not like the idea, but you can't prevent somebody asking to discuss it: it's called freedom of speech in democracy.

I agree with everything you say (especially the civil manner thing )

But the text quoted is something I have to respectfully disagree with.

For some time now, some people, and in particular Vince Pinto, have looked for ways to deal with the capacity issue in Production (which is very good, IMO!)

There have been some great suggestions that were worth a good discussion and had a pretty good chance of winning over the majority of IPSC shooters (limiting magazine capacity or introducing the box rule come to mind).

But now, pretty much out of the blue, this certain proposal is suggested for all divisions. And it is suggested not only out of the blue, but also by the IPSC President.

I think it's a shame some other proposals don't make their way out of the discussions at the Global Village to the GA. Yet a proposal from above makes it's way to the GA without checking if there is any moral basis amongst the shooters. And all we can do in this case, is say yes or no to proposals from the chief.

I do not find this very democratic.

Edited September 26, 2008 by spook

[JThompson]

I'm not pointing a finger at you Luca, you just got the rant started.

I wonder why?

I just stated that I have mixed feelings about this proposal, I'm not in favour nor against it.

I did state, however, I don't buy the "it's not freestyle" objection, since there are several other rules (e.g. fault and charge lines) that could be deemed to be against this principle, and we all accept them, since they add to the shooting challenge while still leaving room to creativity.

I also stated that in Open, Modified, Standard and (IPSC) Production, the reloading skill is perishing, since I (shooting PD and SD) only reload an average of 3 times in a 10 stages match, and I used myself as an example, being the above applicable to almost any IPSC competitor. BTW, we don't have Lim-10 and Singlestack in IPSC, and Prod is exactly in the same boat as Standard when it comes to mag capacity, we already have 19+1 guns...

We have fault and charge lines for safety... I know what div are IPSC and USPSA I was just making a point... I always worry about PC crap jumping the pond. As I understand it they are primarily concerned with Prod in this case, so why the blanket rule? It's a simple matter to say Prod can have X rounds and no more, much like our L10 or SS

[scirocco38s]

Bjorn,

you may be right, and this is why the whole issue will be discussed and voted by the General Assembly.

To all those that think vehemently objecting a proposal (and maybe using inappropriate words) is the way to go: having the proposal brought to the attention of the assembly is the most democratic way to handle things.

You might not like the idea, but you can't prevent somebody asking to discuss it: it's called freedom of speech in democracy.

If you feel so strongly about a subject, have your delegate knowing your opinion and let him vote (after all he is your democratically elected delegate) and be ready to accept the majority vote, even if this is against your personal opinion.

I think a discussion (at any level) shall be civil and respectful, among polite people.

I agree that discussion cannot be stopped. As to freedom of speech in a democracy, there are alot of members of ipsc that arent in a democracy so that point is invailid, plus ipsc itself has proven it is more of a benevolent dictatorship with 2 or 3 members making the decisions with the smaller members being influenced into voting in a particular way. The US has the largest number of shooters of any of the member clubs but only has 1 vote at the GA so a small country with 100 shooters total have the ability to nullify any vote we cast even though we bring more to the table.

Mandating a load is to close to IDPA and I quit shooting that mess because of the silly rules and their constant changing because of a vocal minority of mall ninjas.(and yes, that is what most of them are)

This reload and the equipment race is because of limits set by the GA several years ago and the technology and inventiveness of people find a way to overcome. A 36 round field course would make it where everyone would have to reload and I dont see anyone make a big stick work with 36. As to the number of 31+ 1 mags out there, I have seen as many of them die in the middle of a stage as have worked. Most of the guys who have them arent good enough shooters to take advantage of the capacity and use it as a crutch for other mistakes they make ion the course and the ones that can usually will make a reload anyway unless it is a close up 32 round hoser stage with no good place to reload. But course design will ensure a rel;oad is performed better than any other rule. If I have to move 15 feet between 2 shooting positions and I am in the first or last 3rd of the stage, I will reload anyway for a mulitple of reasons, and the ones who dont if they get away with it, good for them, if not, standing reload. as for the smaller stages, other than classifiers I dont see the advantage.

As for trying to make the sport more PC and acceptable, it aint going to happen so we might as well accept it and just keep on with what we have until they take it all away. To that effect I say we shoot only the targets with the heads on it and tell everyone else to bad.

OH, DID ANYONE HEAR CHRIS SAY HELL NO.

Well said Chris

[XRe]

Restricting it to Production would be better than having it hit all divisions. I fully respect the need for IPSC to be careful with the equipment rules - as amazingly, IPSC is the only reason why some areas of the world are still able to own certain pieces of gear (though a decision to include AirSoft as a potential competition venue in IPSC certainly goes against that notion, doesn't it?)

Forcing this into the other divisions, however, certainly seems to contravene the intent of those divisions. They're "box" divisions (even in the US, our equivalents are basically the same, with slight rules differences) - you're given a set of restrictions, and everything in between is fair game. If there's a need to restrict ammo utilization in those divisions, shorten the mags. They'll still be high capacity, just... less high. Shrink the size of the box for Standard and Modified. Reduce Open to, say, 160mm or something. People will still do their best to eek out every ounce of capacity in that size, but the potential will be lower.

Honestly, I don't fundamentally have a problem with a mandatory reload in a Medium course - requiring them in long courses (ie, big field courses) doesn't sit well with me, though.

Finally, raising the maximum round count for a long course is certainly another way to address the issue. A 36 round COF would basically require two reloads in Standard and probably two in Production. It would also force one in Open. Is there really anything so wrong with blasting 4-6 more rounds downrange? It means revos need one more reload (maybe two, depending on the COF)...

Anyhow, forcing reloads per course size just still seems like a silly fix to the problem, to me...

[Jim Norman]

There have been rumors that certain high ranking IPSC officers have stated that they would remove gunpowder from the sport if they could. Airgun IPSC? Airsoft IPSC? Some of this seems to be incrementalism towards that end. Capacity limits, removal of the historically classic target (Metric).

I favor some way of opening up IPSC Production to more guns and calibers. Right now it is a 9mm high cap division. USPSA Production is competitive with 9, 40 and .45.

Jim

[XRe]

If you want to reload you have SS, Pro, L10...

Ok, silly American... We're talking about IPSC here Production gets 19 rounds (if you shoot an SP-01), there's no such thing as L10 or SS (though I think SS was being talked about as a potential provisional division?).

[Skywalker]

I agree with everything you say (especially the civil manner thing )

But the text quoted is something I have to respectfully disagree with.

For some time now, some people, and in particular Vince Pinto, have looked for ways to deal with the capacity issue in Production (which is very good, IMO!)

There have been some great suggestions that were worth a good discussion and had a pretty good chance of winning over the majority of IPSC shooters (limiting magazine capacity or introducing the box rule come to mind).

But now, pretty much out of the blue, this certain proposal is suggested for all divisions. And it is suggested not only out of the blue, but also by the IPSC President.

I think it's a shame some other proposals don't make their way out of the discussions at the Global Village to the GA. Yet a proposal from above makes it's way to the GA without checking if there is any moral basis amongst the shooters. And all we can do in this case, is say yes or no to proposals from the chief.

I do not find this very democratic.

Bjorn,

I will have to (respectfully ... ) take exception to some of the above.

If you have followed the discussion (dating back to april) on this subject at the GV, you'll have noticed that the very initial proposal didn't came out of the blue, and it did came right from the beginning as aimed to all divisions.

It was april when it was first announced it was going to be brought to the attention of the Assembly.

Now, I agree that being IPSC president has some advantages that may be negated to IPSC members, i.e. being able to ask a motion to be added to the agenda without this having to be submitted to a RD, but I don't think this is really outrageous.

Moreover, if anybody has a proposal, all he has to do is to have his regional Director to forward it for inclusion in the agenda.

[Skywalker]

As to freedom of speech in a democracy, there are alot of members of ipsc that arent in a democracy so that point is invailid, plus ipsc itself has proven it is more of a benevolent dictatorship with 2 or 3 members making the decisions with the smaller members being influenced into voting in a particular way. The US has the largest number of shooters of any of the member clubs but only has 1 vote at the GA so a small country with 100 shooters total have the ability to nullify any vote we cast even though we bring more to the table.

This may as well be the tombstone to a democratic discussion: "you have non-democratic members, your organization is not democratic, thus freedom of speech is an invalid point here".

Sorry, I ain't going down this path.

[Skywalker]

There have been rumors that certain high ranking IPSC officers have stated that they would remove gunpowder from the sport if they could. Airgun IPSC? Airsoft IPSC?

Rumours are just that ... rumours.

You can have them saying whatever you like ... you can even invent them ...

Edited September 26, 2008 by Skywalker

[BritinUSA]

There have been rumors that certain high ranking IPSC officers have stated that they would remove gunpowder from the sport if they could.

Jim, I was at a GA where this was mentioned by Nick Alexakos. He was not stating his opinion but rather he was referring to comments made by members of the IOC (International Olympic Committee).

So he was quoting what he had been told at the IOC.

I am not aware of any member of IPSC council that wants to get rid of gunpowder. It's the IOC that wants to do it.

Edited September 26, 2008 by BritinUSA

[JThompson]

EDIT: For rudeness and very un-PC comments

Edited September 26, 2008 by JThompson

[G-ManBart]

Build more 32 round courses, there everyone will have to reload. Havnt seen a 31+1 170mm legal mag yet.

I've had one for a while....they do exist, but they're right on the limit of what can be done right now.