IPSC Proposal for Mandatory Reloads

[Jim Norman]

I can not go to the not so Global Village however I would vote this way and comment as follows:

No to the proposal as it stands as I think removing all the mag length restrictions is unnecessary. I would personally vote to see this mandatory reload ONLY in Production. It is the only place that has a problem. That of course would change if 9mm major were to be allowed in Standard/Limited.

Since I have no plans to shoot other than USPSA rules matches, however it really doesn't matter much to me.

Jim

[Cardinal]

Neil Beverly came up with an excellent suggestion over on GV. I hope he won't mind me copy and pasting it here..

I still prefer the idea we kicked agreed on at IWA in that the initial load prior to the start signal is a total maximum of 15 rounds in the gun (PD only). Thereafter any subsequent magazine can be any size and any capacity.

This forces reloads on stages with 16 or more rounds and still retains justification for having higher capacity mags. Even a 32 round stage can be shot with 15 rounds at the start plus a second mag of 17 rounds. Better still would be 28 round stages where a greater degree of freestyle applies as to when the reload takes place.

It is disappointing that this option hasn't been included as a possibility.

I'm fairly sure the UKPSA will be voting against the current agenda proposal.

Edit: though it may not answer the question/problem of the capacity race in PD.... hmmmm

Edited September 28, 2008 by Cardinal

[Cardinal]

Vince Pinto started a new poll and thread regarding the proposed rules.

Those that are registered there, please go vote.

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=7824

[sargenv]

Has anyone thought to just increase the Long course from 32 to 36 rounds? That right there would take care of the issue. Try to squeeze 36 rounds into a big stick... I dare ya!

[Jim Norman]

Must be me.

There is NO PROBLEM with any division OTHER THAN IPSC Production. With all of the guns on the accepted list, only a few 9mm high capacity guns are considered competitive. Due to the political climate in some regions, maybe most, IPSC shies away from mandating a capacity maximum or limit on loaded rounds. They are concerned that if the say that you only can have X number of rounds in Production, then those regions will have to justify why 30 is 'needed' in other divisions.

Inserting a reload AFTER the first shot is fired and prior to engaging the last target makes lower capacity guns competitive and also opens up additional calibers as competitive. It is arguably still freestyle in that reloading is actually a shooting skill and you are not told where you must reload, only that you must. Not really different than saying you must pass through a doorway or remain in the fault lines.

This is NOT needed in other divisions due to already accepted limits such as the box with magazine inserted or mag must fit the gauge.

Again, it must be me as I really don't see this a a slippery slope issue. Other items on the agenda are of much greater concern to me and should I think be so to all. Airsoft IPSC? Removal of the IPSC-Metric target, not being allowed to mix Popper sizes on the same COF, all of these concern me.

Jim

[geezer-lock]

It must be the ageing of our constituency. The old guys don’t remember and the young guys just don’t know. Mandatory reloads are a throw back, wayyy back. We didn’t have a revolver division so we made the folks shooting guns that had bullets in a box reload, just to level the playing field. That sort of “sensitive” solution eventually evolved into “revolver friendly” which became another game altogether.

Small changes have a way of becoming those swollen, bloviating, monstrosities that take teams of lawyers to define (“what is IS”). We have plenty of definitions now. We don’t need no stinkin’ mandatory reloads.

David C

[Neil Smith]

Removal of the IPSC-Metric target

Jim

Jim

From Bali

With effect from the January 2009 Edition IPSC Rulebooks, the target currently designated as the IPSC Metric Target be retired and no longer be an authorized target.

edit,

The Metric target is now history. The Classic target has been renamed The IPSC Standard Target.

N

Edited October 28, 2008 by Neil Smith

[JThompson]

Removal of the IPSC-Metric target

Jim

Jim

28. Motion

With effect from the January 2009 Edition IPSC Rulebooks, the target currently designated as the IPSC Metric Target be retired and no longer be an authorized target.

The Metric target is history. Classic target renamed The IPSC Standard Target.

N

Next step Airguns...

[Nik Habicht]

Removal of the IPSC-Metric target

Jim

Jim

28. Motion

With effect from the January 2009 Edition IPSC Rulebooks, the target currently designated as the IPSC Metric Target be retired and no longer be an authorized target.

The Metric target is history. Classic target renamed The IPSC Standard Target.

N

I wonder if Col. Cooper just rolled over in his grave.....

....on second thought, he was probably jaded enough about the sport in his lifetime, IIR some of his writings correctly.....

Wow! I really don't know what to say......

[mpolans]

Wait, so someone made the motion, but did it actually pass???

[Charles Bond]

Everyone please keep in mind that all of us in the US now shoot the USPSA Rulebook rather than the IPSC Rulebook unless it is a IPSC match.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Charles Bond

[JThompson]

Everyone please keep in mind that all of us in the US now shoot the USPSA Rulebook rather than the IPSC Rulebook unless it is a IPSC match.

Yes we know, but when the founding body starts to sell out it's more ammo/pressure on us to follow... It also gives those that would have us do the same, more ammo to use against us... you watch IPSC will go airsoft too. I can hear the arguments now... Well IPSC doesn't need heads on their targets or hicap mags... well IPSC uses airsoft........................

That's what we are thinking Charles... they do this stuff in increments.

Edited October 28, 2008 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

Everyone please keep in mind that all of us in the US now shoot the USPSA Rulebook rather than the IPSC Rulebook unless it is a IPSC match.

By virtue of my USPSA membership am I not a member of IPSC? Was there not a potential (at least perceived by some) shift in the value of that membership? To suggest that this has no effect on us --- by virtue of the fact that the U.S. region shoots primarily USPSA matches under USPSA rules --- seems a bit shortsighted....

[Jim Norman]

I hereby move that we rename the target formally known as the "Metric" the USPSA Classic Target. I can't see where IPSC having abrogated their ownership rights by denying the use of this target should have a problem with this.

All in favor say Aye!

Jim

Edited October 28, 2008 by Jim Norman

[wgnoyes]

Everyone please keep in mind that all of us in the US now shoot the USPSA Rulebook rather than the IPSC Rulebook unless it is a IPSC match.

By virtue of my USPSA membership am I not a member of IPSC? Was there not a potential (at least perceived by some) shift in the value of that membership? To suggest that this has no effect on us --- by virtue of the fact that the U.S. region shoots primarily USPSA matches under USPSA rules --- seems a bit shortsighted....

Why? Every time IPSC does something stupid like this, they just sink further and further into irrelevancy.

[JThompson]

I hereby move that we rename the target formally known as the "Metric" the USPSA Classic Target. I can't see where IPSC having abrogated their ownership rights by denying the use of this target should have a problem with this.

All in favor say Aye!

Jim

I think you need a second there Jim.

I second...

So where are we on the rest of the agenda? I know they started this in Bali on the 25th right? So how did they vote on airsoft?

Edited October 28, 2008 by JThompson

[Jim Norman]

I will let someone else start a poll to take a vote on this question now that we have a second.

As to mandatory reloads and airsoft, I too want to know how the voting went or is going.

My feelings are NO to Airsoft and a qualified Yes and No on Mandatory reloads. In Production for IPSC I think it will open up the field to a lot more guns. Right now 9mm hi-capacity is all that need apply IPSC. Here in the USPSA we have a capacity limit in Production that works. If IPSC were to vote for a mandatory reload in Production, then I would support removal of the capacity rule in USPSA. I understand IPSC's aversion to a capacity limit so mandating a reload after the first shot and before engaging the last target makes the game (and it is a Game) more fair and open to more guns without sacrificing freestyle. I would be against this in Open, Modified and Limited/Standard as we really have a fairly stable capacity and a wide selection of available guns in those divisions.

Jim

[Neil Smith]

I will let someone else start a poll to take a vote on this question now that we have a second.

As to mandatory reloads and airsoft, I too want to know how the voting went or is going.

My feelings are NO to Airsoft and a qualified Yes and No on Mandatory reloads. In Production for IPSC I think it will open up the field to a lot more guns. Right now 9mm hi-capacity is all that need apply IPSC. Here in the USPSA we have a capacity limit in Production that works. If IPSC were to vote for a mandatory reload in Production, then I would support removal of the capacity rule in USPSA. I understand IPSC's aversion to a capacity limit so mandating a reload after the first shot and before engaging the last target makes the game (and it is a Game) more fair and open to more guns without sacrificing freestyle. I would be against this in Open, Modified and Limited/Standard as we really have a fairly stable capacity and a wide selection of available guns in those divisions.

Jim

Jim

The Mandatory reload proposal was rejected.

N

[BritinUSA]

I think they actually removed the mandatory reload thing from the agenda completely.

[uscbigdawg]

Not totally opposed to the mandatory reload deal. Basically, it's something added without really taking away. So long as it's done the "right" way. 28 round stage with like 4-6 pieces of steel will usually get you a reload out of everyone.

Rich

[Gary Stevens]

Nik, I have to disagree with your comment about being short sighted. I believe that your BOD has been very far sighted in their actions. When one observes that the direction you are heading may be bad, but does not possess the tools to change the direction, alternative measures have to be taken.

By the BOD's actions USPSA is not being dragged down the rabbit hole to a new place. USPSA has the option to visit the rabbit hole, if they wish, and then return to their home where they are hopefully happy.

Gary

Edited October 28, 2008 by Gary Stevens

[Jim Norman]

Airsoft???

[bbbean]

Speaking as a new competitor, the reason I choose to shoot USPSA and not IDPA is that I enjoy the freestyle aspect. Its one thing to have an occasional mandatory reload, but to see them on every stage would really cut into the run-and-gun aspect of a lot of stages.

It seems to me that shooters who really want a completely level playing field equipment-wise have the option of shooting single stack or revolver. There's only so much you can do to a gun and stay in these categories, and virtually every stage will require a reload. 22+ rd stages effectively force limited and production shooters to reload at some point. But isn't the point of having an open class to let gear hounds race their ultra-guns? If you're shooting in open, aren't you trying to both out shoot and out-gun the competition? Isn't building the ultimate gun part of the attraction? If I ever did decide to shoot open, part of the attraction would be shooting stages with no reloads, or at least a lot fewer than I make now in SS and Limited.

[Jim Norman]

For clarification:

I am in favor of a mandatory reload in IPSC Production ONLY. With a mandatory reload IPSC Would open up the game to many more guns and calibers, similar to USPSA Production which accomplished the same thing with a capacity cap.

I am NOT repeat NOT in favor of a mandatory reload in any other division as they are currently stable where they area as to equipment. The capacity difference in Limited is maybe 4 rounds 5 tops if someone compares a .45 to a .40. In IPSC Production, hi cap 9mm is the only real choice, 19 rounds vs 13 gets to be a bit extreme. Also in Limited/Standard, the major PF and the virtual universal acceptance of .40 as the round to shoot has put capacity with in 2-3 rounds max difference. Keep in mind that Production is by some arguments supposed to be a run what you got how to enter into the sport division. We all recognize that it has become a force unto itself, but in other then the USPSA it is essentially a 9mm division where about 3-5 guns can honestly play.

My opinions, no matter how right they are, are of course still only my opinions.

Jim

[larry cazes]

Nik, I have to disagree with your comment about being short sighted. I believe that your BOD has been very far sighted in their actions. When one observes that the direction you are heading may be bad, but does not possess the tools to change the direction, alternative measures have to be taken.

By the BOD's actions USPSA is not being dragged down the rabbit hole to a new place. USPSA has the option to visit the rabbit hole, if they wish, and then return to their home where they are hopefully happy.

Gary

Well said, Gary. At the time that this happened, I was waiting to see what the justification was. I see now where this was heading............