Inexperienced Shooters

[CSEMARTIN]

I have become increasingly irritated when I travel out-of-state for a major match only to find SO's or RO's that have no business running a shooter. I've also noticed that I get the most irritated with lower level shooters.

What do you guys think? Have you experienced the same frustration? Is there anything we can do about it?

I have no problem with inexperience at local level matches, but seeing this stuff go on at a big match really pisses me off.

[Greg Bell]

I have become increasingly irritated when I travel out-of-state for a major match only to find SO's or RO's that have no business running a shooter. I've also noticed that I get the most irritated with lower level shooters.

What do you guys think? Have you experienced the same frustration? Is there anything we can do about it?

I have no problem with inexperience at local level matches, but seeing this stuff go on at a big match really pisses me off.

It is a valid point, based on the timing of the question I'll use IDPA classifications. I personally think people should be a upper SS level shooter as a minimum, with at least one season of SO experience. I know from my own experience that the first sanctioned match I worked I might have been on the edge. I was supposed to be paired with a more experienced SO but it didn't happen. I did the best I could and learned some lessons hopefully not at the expense of the shooters.

[scribble]

Being a new RO and shooter( 1-1 1/2 years) I can see some peoples point. I still am not 100% sure on some of the hard cover and no shoots with perfs but I am learning every time we shoot. I RO'd my first major match at area 5 this year. I had maybe 3 months as and RO under my belt and was very nervous. I learned allot from the CRO I worked with and he was very mindfull of my newness and always looked over my shoulder to make sure I was making the right calls. I think having them do some of the more remedial items like score sheet work is a good area to get your foot in the door.

So with my .02 I think you should run several local matches before attempting a large one.

[RV man]

I have become increasingly irritated when I travel out-of-state for a major match only to find SO's or RO's that have no business running a shooter. I've also noticed that I get the most irritated with lower level shooters.

What do you guys think? Have you experienced the same frustration? Is there anything we can do about it?

I have no problem with inexperience at local level matches, but seeing this stuff go on at a big match really pisses me off.

It is a valid point, based on the timing of the question I'll use IDPA classifications. I personally think people should be a upper SS level shooter as a minimum, with at least one season of SO experience. I know from my own experience that the first sanctioned match I worked I might have been on the edge. I was supposed to be paired with a more experienced SO but it didn't happen. I did the best I could and learned some lessons hopefully not at the expense of the shooters.

There is often not enough help to put on a match without the enthusiasm of the newer shooters. I understand it can cause problems, but it is better than not holding a match.

Bill

[racerba]

By themselves, I would say 'no'. However, if they were helping out on a stage with experienced shooters/ROs/SOs, I don't wee a problem with it. It's a very good learning experience for them.

[Steve J]

The level of the shooter (MM, SS, EX or C, B, or A) means absolutely nothing. The only thing that is important when it comes to working as a USPSA RO or IDPA SO is knowledge of the rules and the ability to consistently apply them. There are lots of talented shooters with high classifications and card carrying ROs and SOs (i.e. trained) for that matter that don't know the rules very well.

A MM or C class shooter can be an excellent CRO/CSO. Apples and oranges.

[vluc]

A new RO or "less experienced" coupled at major matches with those with more experience is the best way for them to learn. At the local level, you don't always see or encounter the many variants you do at major matches. Going off of their classification is not necessarily a good indicator of the type of RO they are. There are "A" and "M" class shooters out there who have not even taken an RO class, let alone run squads.

We need to be training these folks as well as we can at the local level. but at some point, they are going to be at the majors where they learn a darn sight more in a short period. IIRC, all the majors I asked to work requested some background as to what matches I had worked before. We all have to start somewhere.

There was another thread somewhat similar to this awhile back regarding RO/CRO's that are not active shooters running squads.

[SteveZ]

I have become increasingly irritated when I travel out-of-state for a major match only to find SO's or RO's that have no business running a shooter.

As others have said...getting help these days can be tough...but I would think that a good MD/RM would try and pair up an experienced CRO with an inexperienced RO on each stage...if they've got a bunch of inexperienced RO who have volunteered. That way the inexperienced RO can learn while still helping out...and eventually they'll be the experienced one.

I've also noticed that I get the most irritated with lower level shooters.

in general????

[vluc]

I've also noticed that I get the most irritated with lower level shooters.

What do you guys think? Have you experienced the same frustration? Is there anything we can do about it?

This is where we support the sport.

You can get PO'd and bitch about them, maybe even criticize them to their faces, and they show up no more. Or, you can discuss what you believe they did wrong or not as well as they could and turn it into a positive learning experience for them.

Your choice...

[Micah]

So long as the newer RO/SO does not have the final say, and so long as their attitude is not poor when a competitor disagrees with a call, AND so long as the final call is made my someone with experience, there should not be a problem. I have shot major matches with experienced CRO's running a stage and have not agreed with a particular call. Following the rules, the next step is that the RM steps in and makes the final decision.

[uscbigdawg]

This came up this weekend actually.

We had 2 newer shooters that are both RO certified. 1 is a decent shooter and the other is frankly garbage. What makes it worse in #2's case is that he's fallen into the syndrome we call, "GM if only in his own mind". Because he believes he sooooooo good, he feels it's the job of the new shooters to tape, set steel, etc. He's got 3 classifiers on the books with none greater than 38%.

Both avoid RO'ing or running the clipboard under the excuse of they are still new shooters and have a hard time with it and don't want to screw up someone's score (and they do screw up the score sheets as apparently arithmetic is too much). Well frankly, your A** can pick up a roll of tape then and work. Or...suck it up and learn how to do it.

Either way, the attitude is disappointing and since myself and another shooter had to RO, EVERY shooter through 3 stages, it was getting old quick. I love RO'ing shooters, but when I'm going to RO every one of them, and there are folks that are RO qualified dodging the work, AND not working it's more than a little frustrating.

So...for new guys. This is what club level matches are for. Development. Get your skills up and yeah...work some bigger matches. Frankly, learning the rules and monitoring your fellow competitors, makes you a better one.

Rich

[leam]

As an IDPA SO without much experience, I'd prefer to score, paste, and pick up brass at a large match. If we were at State I'd not be offended if a top competitor politely asked for a more experienced SO.

Leam

[bigbrowndog]

experience does not equate to foolproof, just look at major league sporting events, Ref's and Ump's make the wrong call all the time.

it goes the same for shooters, I've seen experienced shooters, (myself included) do some really bonehead things, take WAY too much time getting ready to shoot, or slack off on things while waiting to shoot.

Personally if you get that pissed off, maybe you should take up another activity.

Trapr

[JThompson]

I vote for having the super squads be ROs. Comon you have to take the people willing to help and then teach them. There are some top level shooters that do jump in and help, but I've seen those that don't even paste a friggn target. You need to cut the new guys some slack... if you see something they are doing wrong you should take the time to tell them and help make them better. They are after all volunteers doing a thankless job and the only time we hear about them is when they screw up or a cursory "thank you" at the end of the squad. Nobody needs attitudes when they are trying their best and getting paid zippo.

my2

JT

[raz-0]

Depends on what the OP means by lower level. If an enthusiastic newbie is pitching in and you happen to have an RO course they take, they might not be ready for primetime.

It is one thing to know what's written in the book, it's another thing to be able to recognize it when you see it, and to get in the habit of looking for it in a manner that is effective.

How long that takes is a function of the individual in question, and how chock full of gamers and or cheaters your local club matches are.

[RUSHARP2]

I am a new shooter (started in Feb/Mar) and went to the NROI class in June. Figured it was a great way to learn the rules better than just reading through the book, and a way to start giving back at my local fun shoots. I shoot every Sunday and generally 2 Saturdays a month, with pretty much the same group of people. As soon as I was done with the class and got my card in the mail, I started pitching in. I know I have made mistakes, but even the people that want to argue do so with some respect. I would have no problem running any shooter through a stage at any match, even the nationals. I would brush up on the rules before I started and have it in my back pocket the entire day.

"AND so long as the final call is made my someone with experience, there should not be a problem."

Sorry that makes no sense at all. Why cant I be the final say if I have the rule book and I am applying the rule correctly. A rule is a rule, a perf is a perf, a fault line is a faultline. I would never make a judgement call (180 for example) without being dead sure. Generally a new shooter is not going to be the final call, I beleive the final call goes to an appeal at the match.

I dont think a lower classification would detract from them knowing/interpreting/enforcing the rules.

If there is a big enough problem, complain to the MD/CRO/RM, I am sure that they would assist in straightening the person out. Or ask the RO if you could provide a little helping suggestion.

Just my .02.

Matt

[-JQ-]

I vote for having the super squads be ROs. Come on you have to take the people willing to help and then teach them.

JT

That would be nice.

As a <1 yr shooter I'm not even particularly comfortable with the clip board. I know it is simple math but as a new shooter I have a lot to think about anyway I'm a master level paster however and pretty good with steel. I'm slowly working my way up to swinger setter... I hear that can be fun but I'm not sure.

I do really appreciate the ROs/SOs etc. I've done a lot of MTB race "management", scoring, finding lost riders, etc etc and it is a thankless job. When certain people complained too loud we offered them to race for free next time if they would pitch in...many took the challenge, few kept complaining...its tough to be competitive personally AND keep your mind on business/safety

So, I don't mind helping out but I personally am not on the journey to RO/SO.

ymmv

[Loves2Shoot]

"AND so long as the final call is made my someone with experience, there should not be a problem."

Sorry that makes no sense at all. Why cant I be the final say if I have the rule book and I am applying the rule correctly. A rule is a rule, a perf is a perf, a fault line is a faultline. I would never make a judgement call (180 for example) without being dead sure. Generally a new shooter is not going to be the final call, I beleive the final call goes to an appeal at the match.

I dont think a lower classification would detract from them knowing/interpreting/enforcing the rules.

If there is a big enough problem, complain to the MD/CRO/RM, I am sure that they would assist in straightening the person out. Or ask the RO if you could provide a little helping suggestion.

Just my .02.

Matt

I was at a State Match this year (IDPA) and was told my gear was "illegal" by a fairly new SO. The problem wasn't the gear, it was the lack of understanding of the rules. Of course the gear was fine, but the SO was very adamant he knew it was not legal, even though he was looking at a picture and could not understand what the photo was depicting. We had already had a gear check on 3 stages (I think we had 4 or 5 that day) and I knew the gear is legal.

I did have to take it to the MD (which was a heck of a walk) and this is very distracting for a competitor, as your squad is shooting and you have no time to prepare properly to shoot the stage.

I think the bigger issue is that the rules are a bit complicated and it does some take some time and RO/SOing to get the hang of it, so I do think their should be some sort of experience or testing or the match staff at bigger matches to ensure the competitors have consistent judging (especially in IDPA, where there are a lot of gray areas.)

I appreciate every one who volunteers to put on a match, but it can be frustrating when someone is getting "on the job training" at a larger match that you have spent a lot of time and money getting ready for and attending at the expense of your score.

[Flexmoney]

I have become increasingly irritated when I travel out-of-state for a major match only to find SO's or RO's that have no business running a shooter. I've also noticed that I get the most irritated with lower level shooters.

I don't think their shooting level has much to do with it. Some of the best RO's that I know aren't all that good at shooting. And, some of the better shooters...don't make great RO's.

[CSEMARTIN]

Personally if you get that pissed off, maybe you should take up another activity.

You hit the nail on the head!!!! I am seriously considering never again shooting IDPA. I am so fed up with IDPA.....

While there are exceptions, the general observation I've made is range experience correlates well to a shooter's level. I wasn't picking on lower level shooters. In fact, I am always delighted to see someone get "hooked" for the first time. It really is a wonderful thing. At a local match or practice night, I'll spend as much time as needed to help out a new SO. It's not my place to educate an SO at a major match. I'm not there to be the "professor" or the guy with "all the answers".

The reason I brought up this topic was because I know of two MD's that think it is perfectly o.k. to have brand new SO's run a stage at a major match. I'm all for pairing up the inexperienced with the experienced. That's the only way they'll get experience!! But there has to be some basic foundation before the new guy handles the clock at a major. I'm not talking about the guy that's been doing it for 3-6 months. I'm talking about the guy that took the SO class the week before the match!!

Someone brought up the point about it being better to have a match with inexperienced SO's rather than cancel the match. With gas at $4 bucks a gallon, a match fee of $90 bucks, hotel, food, time off from work, hours in the car, I'd have to disagree with that statement. If you put on a match and take my money, please let me know before I show up to amateur night. I'll stay home and do some dry-fire drills in my basement.

[CSEMARTIN]

Some of the best RO's that I know aren't all that good at shooting. And, some of the better shooters...don't make great RO's.

Flex, I do respect your opinion so I'm going to rethink my position on this-- but I personally haven't seen any bad Master class SO's.

[Merlin Orr]

My belief is that it's more about attitude than being perfect or really experienced. At our "big" IDPA match of the year... we have had one guy SO a few times who invariably seems to infuriate shooters, nice guys most of em, with his incredibly arrogant and dogmatic behaviour...... On the other hand a "newer" SO who gives a shit and is not on a personal power trip usually gets his shooters through the stage with everyone still smiling.

Now that I've said that... I too have a low tolerance for bullshit and sometimes it's hard to keep smiling when you run into one of "those" SO/ROs....

[AlamoShooter]

To take what your post says..."Inexperienced Shooters" Ro-ing at a big match.

I have 19years at sport shooting, and some of the stages I see , I don't feel adequate to Ro. Like stage 18 at Nationals. .

When in doubt at an out of town shoot I will tell the Ro ahead of time what my movements will be so that they do not get in my vision. Plan ahead before you get upset at the next match

An Ro that gives points away to keep from making someone mad is what rips my brain.

Merlin is rite some personalities just don't mix , What is confidence to one guy is arrogance to the next.

I can park my truck and some get infuriated before I even get out.

Edited September 19, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[Micah]

"AND so long as the final call is made my someone with experience, there should not be a problem."

Sorry that makes no sense at all. Why cant I be the final say if I have the rule book and I am applying the rule correctly. A rule is a rule, a perf is a perf, a fault line is a faultline.

7.1.6

The RM makes the final call. When you look at major matches, you will see names lime Paul Hernandez, Perry Wilson, Troy McManus and Gary Stevens. These guys have worked MANY major matches and know the ropes.

If/when they will/have looked me in the eye and made a judgment, I am satisfied that I was given the most fair judgment in the sport. When ANY RO/CRO makes a call that I do not like, it is my right per the rulebook to seek the judgment of the RM.

[Flexmoney]

It is also your right to go even beyond the Range Master and seek arbitration.

I have yet to meet an Range Officer, Chief Range Officer, Range Master, Range Master Instructor, nor Match Director that hasn't been mistaken at some point. (Most certainly, including myself.)