Who else makes 2011 frames?

[Bob Hostetter]

Bar Sto doesn't make anything but the barrels. They buy everything else. The frames and slides come prefit directly from STI with the Bar Sto name on them.

[mpolans]

My only thought would be to make 100% certain that your not infringing on their intellectual property or patents. Tripp and Strayer created a platform that took competitive firearms to a whole new level and they deserve every bit of credit and respect due. If there are licensing fees due, I'm certain that they'd be cheaper than litigation.

I totally agree. I am only in the initial process of doing the research.

My thoughts on intellectual property and patent rights - there is a reason patents expire, it allows the inventor(s) to recover their costs and make a profit for a know amount of time. The vast majority of the parts we use in 1911 type guns were at one time under patent restrictions, but once they expired the market and competition took over.

What is legal isnt always also ethical.

I accidentally voted "No" so move one over to the "Yes" column. I don't see the ethics problem. The whole idea of a patent is to give an inventor a monopoly for a finite period of time to make profit on his idea in exchange for said inventor allowing his ideas to be preserved and used by others. The expiration of the patent allows competition to resume, pressuring inventors to improve products and create new and improved products, and promoting cheaper prices for existing products.

The inventor could easily have chosen not to patent his idea and many choose not to (mostly chemical formulas though, like the recipe for Coke). Since an inventor receives all the benefit of a monopoly for several years, I don't see an ethical problem with someone using the knowledge after the patent has expired.

FWIW, if you want to make some real cash, since the patent on Swenson ambi thumb shield safeties has expired last year (US Patent # 4,742,634), if you could make a non-crappy better version (preferably cheaper too), you would probably rake in the big bucks.

Edited September 11, 2008 by mpolans

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: With CNC machining centers you could make a mold very quickly for the grips. You could then make grips from plastic or even investment cast grips from steel,aluminum or Titanium. If you think you can make a better mousetrap I say go for it. Thanks, Eric

[HSMITH]

I work in the CNC business, so I have a pretty good idea how these things are made. The grip mold is EXTREMELY complicated and EXTREMELY expensive. With STI making them now I wouldn't touch making plastic grips with a ten foot pole, not even if I could blame it on someone else. The frame isn't that hard to make, and you can make it from a simple piece of bar stock. You would need a manufacturers license, have to pay excise taxes, and all of that. Eats up a good portion of the $350 pretty quick when you add material, tooling and machine time. The only way I see to make it worth doing would be to make a super premium product with extremely tight tolerances held and very good surface finishes to be sold at premium prices, to do that in a reasonable amount of time would require CNC equipment beyond what has been discussed. My view could be a little distorted, I don't want to do something that someone else is already doing, I have to do it visibly and functionally better or I won't bother. If I can't do it better at a reasonable cost with a reasonable return I will just buy that product and focus on the things I can improve.

[cdrissel]

I work in the CNC business, so I have a pretty good idea how these things are made. The grip mold is EXTREMELY complicated and EXTREMELY expensive. With STI making them now I wouldn't touch making plastic grips with a ten foot pole, not even if I could blame it on someone else. The frame isn't that hard to make, and you can make it from a simple piece of bar stock. You would need a manufacturers license, have to pay excise taxes, and all of that. Eats up a good portion of the $350 pretty quick when you add material, tooling and machine time. The only way I see to make it worth doing would be to make a super premium product with extremely tight tolerances held and very good surface finishes to be sold at premium prices, to do that in a reasonable amount of time would require CNC equipment beyond what has been discussed. My view could be a little distorted, I don't want to do something that someone else is already doing, I have to do it visibly and functionally better or I won't bother. If I can't do it better at a reasonable cost with a reasonable return I will just buy that product and focus on the things I can improve.

As an Injection Mold maker, I think Mr. Smith is correct. You would be looking at a multi slide mold - big bucks!

I'm still looking into the cost, FFL (manufacturer’s), taxes and such. I'm still going to make a few for myself.

Edited September 11, 2008 by SpottyB

[Chuck Anderson]

I wonder if the 500 unit limit would be in effect on a frame by another manufacturer. I would say past practice with the 1911 frames would say otherwise, but who knows. Might be something to look into. It would suck to spend the time making the frame only to find out it couldn't be used in anything but Open.

[Seth]

Why don't you revolutionize the world instead of copying it?

[cdrissel]

Why don't you revolutionize the world instead of copying it?

I was just thinking about machining something that would be a challenge and might be marketable.

[sasquatch981]

Well the old story goes, Mr. Lamborghini did not like the fact he had to continually have to have his Ferrari tuned and maintained, so he decided to make his own car. Granted a Lamborghini or Ferrari are not near as a reliable as a Honda or Toyota, but then again we all have to make our own choices.

STI "revolutionized" the pistol market with a Frame/Grip component system. Glock revolutionized the pistol market by making a polymer pistol. Now we have S&W, Taurus, H&K, SIG, and Oh yeah Springfield. Well I guess Springfield went about it a different way, they bought someone else’s pistol design (HS2000) and made it their own.

I don't begrudge a guy a chance to make/duplicate a new product that may be better or worse than what is out there. I mean if there was not competition for products, there would be no innovation, and we would all be driving Model T's

[nashvillebill]

Where does the Bul frame fit into all this? It's a polymer frame 2011. Are they licensed copies or something different enough to not require permission?

Y'all got me curious.

[Chuck Anderson]

With everyone making negative comments about this I wonder how many own a 1911 or AR-15 that wasn't manufactured by Colt. I guess JP, DPMS, Caspian, and all the rest are a bunch of copy cats. Oh wait STI and SV both have 1911's as well I guess they should be vilified as well. The patent is up. I say go for it.

[Chuck Anderson]

Where does the Bul frame fit into all this? It's a polymer frame 2011. Are they licensed copies or something different enough to not require permission?

Y'all got me curious.

I believe most of the patents were on the modular basis of the frame and grip. The Bul M-5 is not a 2011 pattern gun, it is a polymer framed wide body single action gun, but not a 2011. The SPS is a pretty direct copy of the 2011 and I know there were challenges to that, which is why you don't see many in the US.

[Merlin Orr]

I am glad that RIA makes SS guns and really glad that they market them at 1/3 the price of S_I products. The prices are already out of line IMO and they would be farther out of line if only one manufacturer made them. Every time a new cell carrier comes into the market the prices come down. When imported cars came into the US the quality of products improved immensely. When drug patents expire the generics can (kinda) be bought by those of us with no health insurance.

Competition is vital to any and every market. Without competition we stagnate and die.

Bring it on.

[buddy_fuentes]

"Why don't you revolutionize the world instead of copying it?"

Tell that to Kimber, Les Baer, Wilson, and Rock River to name a few. Oh, don't forget DPMS, Bushmaster, and others.

If you can afford the time and money, go for it! Even if you don't make a better mouse trap...you may get rich trying.

The best of luck to you.

Buddy

[photog]

How about making a CZ style pistol, here in the USA? Nobody is doing that (Armalite is IMPORTING the AR-24, Witnesses are made in Italy, CZ's are from the Czech Republic, etc). Personally I love my 1911, but there are better designs out there, and I think the grip leaves much to be disered. WE NEED MORE INNOVATIVE GUNS!! I would usually side with Flex, but not this time.

[HSMITH]

I like how photog thinks.

I'd pay a lot of money for a CZ-75 style pistol with a rock solid frame to slide fit and a bullet proof slide stop arrangement that held 22 rounds of 40 in a Limited legal mag.......

Sell me component parts to build said gun and we will sell a PILE of them.

[pevadijk]

I'd pay a lot of money for a CZ-75 style pistol with a rock solid frame to slide fit and a bullet proof slide stop arrangement

Sounds like a Sphinx 3000 to me ;-)

[ebg3]

How about a 2011 style frame that will take Para mags.

[Flexmoney]

I would usually side with Flex, but not this time.

Jeez.

I'm not on a side, and I wasn't being negative. I was pointing out some aspects that might need thought about. I'd think through.

If you are drawing to an inside straight, you might want to know if there is a flush on the table.

Anybody that goes into ANY business needs to be able to say who their market is in a clear and decisive manner...in two sentences or less.

[cdrissel]

I would usually side with Flex, but not this time.

Jeez.

I'm not on a side, and I wasn't being negative. I was pointing out some aspects that might need thought about. I'd think through.

If you are drawing to an inside straight, you might want to know if there is a flush on the table.

Anybody that goes into ANY business needs to be able to say who their market is in a clear and decisive manner...in two sentences or less.

The market I am after is the custom gun-builder/gunsmith. I would offer frames only, custom and standard configurations.

[uscbigdawg]

SpottyB,

You want to make some money...machine an aluminum (or other really durable material) single stack grip for the STI frame.

Rich

ETA: Remember too...before STI there was CMC Gunracer's!

Edited September 12, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[cdrissel]

SpottyB,

You want to make some money...machine an aluminum (or other really durable material) single stack grip for the STI frame.

Rich

ETA: Remember too...before STI there was CMC Gunracer's!

Grip panels for the 1911 or a single stack grip for the 2011?

If you mean a SS grip for the 2001 - why?

Edited September 12, 2008 by SpottyB

[uscbigdawg]

Single stack grip for the 2011 used to be offered. It isn't any more. Why? For starters, a simple grip change on my Limited gun will get me good in Single Stack/IDPA.

On my Open gun, I could go single stack and make a nice shoot-off/steel gun.

Rich

[chuckbradley]

Single stack grip for the 2011 used to be offered. It isn't any more. Why? For starters, a simple grip change on my Limited gun will get me good in Single Stack/IDPA.

On my Open gun, I could go single stack and make a nice shoot-off/steel gun.

Rich

Rich, That was the idea when STI did the Single Stack grip. Those sports disallowed them as legal. The market isnt there or STI would still be making them.

[chuckbradley]

I am glad that RIA makes SS guns and really glad that they market them at 1/3 the price of S_I products. The prices are already out of line IMO and they would be farther out of line if only one manufacturer made them. Every time a new cell carrier comes into the market the prices come down. When imported cars came into the US the quality of products improved immensely. When drug patents expire the generics can (kinda) be bought by those of us with no health insurance.

Competition is vital to any and every market. Without competition we stagnate and die.

Bring it on.

Comparing apples to oranges?

Competition moving forward, getting better is good. Copycat competition is what stagnates. Perhaps that's what the patent laws promote. Again make something new and revolutionary, thats what I want to see. Not more of the same.

I don't think the idea is good business sense, at least considering all the variables. But then again bad business decisions are made everyday.