Who else makes 2011 frames?

[cdrissel]

Do what you want. I like the idea of what you are planning. BTW, Mike Hughes is a patent attorney in Washington State. He's also a really good USPSA competitor. Might be worth giving him a call on the patent issues. It sounds like you have some ideas for different features that are not currently made by SV or STI. Good. There are certain things that a very small level producer is going to be able to do that a major manufacturer can't. It's not worth it to STI or SV to shut down a production line to make a one off frame with a certain feature. If you can fill the niche cool.

I doubt STI would quit selling grips completely. It would be a horrible marketing decision. Especially since 80-90 % (my guess) of folks who shoot USPSA modify their grips in some way. There is no way I would buy a gun for $1700.00, undercut the trigger guard a bit too much and find out I can't get another grip for it. My guess is they might change their distribution model and only sell them factory direct at retail, or to manufacturers they approve of, such as SV or Bar-Sto. It would cut into some distributors pockets to do it that way but grips would still be available to shooters.

My thoughts on grips are similar to custom frames, would be to make them with all the features that the custom guys want. Like under cuts, no checkering, extra material, custom requests.....

But all this depends on patents and mold cost.

"Try to look unimportant; the enemy may be low on ammo and not want to waste a bullet on you." - Mr. Murphy's Laws of Combat

[cdrissel]

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

I guess there is no point in competing in "the business". I might just want to make a high quality product. Profit and money might not be my prime goal.

I think there might be several gun builders out there that want to start a custom project using a high end custom ordered frame. I wouldn’t dream of competing with STI or Infinity.

If you want to do it as a hobby, that is much different that doing it for business. "I was thinking about starting a business making them." It sounded like you wanted to make spec STI frames (which is in my thinking a knocking off them.) Competition is great, but to compete with good companies, it is very hard just copying their designs and selling it for the same price or for a little less. In my mind competing would be making a new/better frame and not making it to their specs.

I didn't mean to come off like I think you just copy designs and make cheap stuff, reality is their are people can only do that. I didn't get "I want to make something new and improved" from your original posts. I was trying to be helpful with the other things it takes to do it "as a business" that a lot of people over look.

You are right. I did state I was thinking about starting a business. I guess what I would like to do falls between hobby and business. I do this all the time by making or modifying parts for friends. If it stays small and pays for itself, then I'm happy to create products for those who want something special.

I do appreciate you comments.

[Merlin Orr]

Reminds me of the old standard Ruger 10/22. A nice enough little .22 that sold a bunch to a lot of shooters. Then the aftermarket kicked in. Now the 10/22 and the MANY variations of it are a tremendous cottage industry with several hundred little companies and individuals making parts. Every piece of the original Ruger design are copied, improved upon and sold by the 10s of thousands.... IMO the advent of the aftermarket parts industry "copying" the original design is responsible for Ruger selling thousands more guns than would have ever been sold without the aftermarket stuff. BTW there are at least 4 companies that make the receiver aftermarket and I don't see Ruger sweating it......

.02

[BigDave]

Why is the thought of generic prescription drugs coming to mind?

The dicussion of SPS used to be of limits here at our host's polite request because he thought what they were doing was unethical even if it was legal. Maybe it and similar disucssions should still be if we're talking about someone other than Infinity or STI building frames commercially. They protected their idea(s) legally and great time and expense and that should be respected absolutely.

But, then again, I, for one, find it facinating if somone wants to crank up the bench top Grizzly and mill one off for their own personal use.

[Singlestack]

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

Chuck,

Do you have a hard time keeping them in stock?

This looks like a simple part to mold. PM me if you are interested.

These 2 statements seem to conflict.

[cdrissel]

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

Chuck,

Do you have a hard time keeping them in stock?

This looks like a simple part to mold. PM me if you are interested.

These 2 statements seem to conflict.

I was asking Chuck about thumb rests not frames.

What makes you think I would make a cheap low ball knock off as opposed to a quality part?

I don’t think Chuck would sell cheap knock offs.

[chuckbradley]

Do what you want. I like the idea of what you are planning. BTW, Mike Hughes is a patent attorney in Washington State. He's also a really good USPSA competitor. Might be worth giving him a call on the patent issues. It sounds like you have some ideas for different features that are not currently made by SV or STI. Good. There are certain things that a very small level producer is going to be able to do that a major manufacturer can't. It's not worth it to STI or SV to shut down a production line to make a one off frame with a certain feature. If you can fill the niche cool.

I doubt STI would quit selling grips completely. It would be a horrible marketing decision. Especially since 80-90 % (my guess) of folks who shoot USPSA modify their grips in some way. There is no way I would buy a gun for $1700.00, undercut the trigger guard a bit too much and find out I can't get another grip for it. My guess is they might change their distribution model and only sell them factory direct at retail, or to manufacturers they approve of, such as SV or Bar-Sto. It would cut into some distributors pockets to do it that way but grips would still be available to shooters.

I guess you missed the part were I said they have cut off supply in the past. They did make them available to us as long as we agreed not to sell the unmodified, unstippled version. So yes they will choose who they sell them to and have agreements all designed to keep the grips away from people putting them on a competitors frame. You could always get one by buying a frame. A few will be able to buy a stippled grip or pianted grip but for the most part to get any real numbers it will not be possible. With those small numbers it just isnt worth it.

[chuckbradley]

Reminds me of the old standard Ruger 10/22. A nice enough little .22 that sold a bunch to a lot of shooters. Then the aftermarket kicked in. Now the 10/22 and the MANY variations of it are a tremendous cottage industry with several hundred little companies and individuals making parts. Every piece of the original Ruger design are copied, improved upon and sold by the 10s of thousands.... IMO the advent of the aftermarket parts industry "copying" the original design is responsible for Ruger selling thousands more guns than would have ever been sold without the aftermarket stuff. BTW there are at least 4 companies that make the receiver aftermarket and I don't see Ruger sweating it......

.02

Making parts better or making accessories is completely different than just copying somebody else's part.

[cdrissel]

Why is the thought of generic prescription drugs coming to mind?

The dicussion of SPS used to be of limits here at our host's polite request because he thought what they were doing was unethical even if it was legal. Maybe it and similar disucssions should still be if we're talking about someone other than Infinity or STI building frames commercially. They protected their idea(s) legally and great time and expense and that should be respected absolutely.

But, then again, I, for one, find it facinating if somone wants to crank up the bench top Grizzly and mill one off for their own personal use.

Bench top Grizzly?

I don't think so.

Do you think this topic should be banned or censored because I pull the sacred cow's tail?

[Turtle]

Perhaps a doublestack metal frame built for the 9/40, smaller dimension, different "feel" than others.

Non-working grip safety model.

This actually sounds like a good idea. After all, the 9/38 mags do have those indentations on the sides to facilitate function in a wide body grip that was originally designed as a"high cap .45".

Never mind, that would be a grip/mag issue and the issue at hand is the frame....

[chuckbradley]

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

Chuck,

Do you have a hard time keeping them in stock?

This looks like a simple part to mold. PM me if you are interested.

These 2 statements seem to conflict.

I was asking Chuck about thumb rests not frames.

What makes you think I would make a cheap low ball knock off as opposed to a quality part?

I don’t think Chuck would sell cheap knock offs.

I must have missed this one. Dont remember it. Was it in a different thread? If it was CR Speed Thumb rests , yes i have problems from time to time. I asked them if I could make it over here. They politely didnt address that question so I took as a no. I wouldnt just copy the design unless they quit making it or with their permission. Like we did with the Nordic Techloader Extension tubes.

[chuckbradley]

Perhaps a doublestack metal frame built for the 9/40, smaller dimension, different "feel" than others.

Non-working grip safety model.

This actually sounds like a good idea. After all, the 9/38 mags do have those indentations on the sides to facilitate function in a wide body grip that was originally designed as a"high cap .45".

Never mind, that would be a grip/mag issue and the issue at hand is the frame....

Actually the STI grip was designed for the 38 super cartridge to start with. 40 wasnt even legal to score major then if I remember right , Limited hadnt even been implemented yet. It was all about the best gun since everybody was shooting heads up.

[cdrissel]

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

Chuck,

Do you have a hard time keeping them in stock?

This looks like a simple part to mold. PM me if you are interested.

These 2 statements seem to conflict.

I was asking Chuck about thumb rests not frames.

What makes you think I would make a cheap low ball knock off as opposed to a quality part?

I don’t think Chuck would sell cheap knock offs.

I must have missed this one. Dont remember it. Was it in a different thread? If it was CR Speed Thumb rests , yes i have problems from time to time. I asked them if I could make it over here. They politely didnt address that question so I took as a no. I wouldnt just copy the design unless they quit making it or with their permission. Like we did with the Nordic Techloader Extension tubes.

Diffrent thread.

[steel1212]

BTW there are at least 4 companies that make the receiver aftermarket and I don't see Ruger sweating it......

.02

Merlin, if I'm not mistaken those companies are making the receiever better, stronger....err faster?

Anyway, if he has a way to improve the design then that would be another ball game. He still would have to come up with the grip as what Chuck says is right. You pop out a frame with no grip and start telling people just to call up Chuck and buy one and STI gets wind of it. They are likely to play hardball and none of us will find grips anymore unless we buy complete frames from STI. This is if he wants to go hog wild and start producing a lot of them. A few for friends or if they end up in a few custom builds and I don't think it would hurt anything, several hundred well.....

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

[larry cazes]

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

Hmm. Are they really that poor? The ones Dan Bedell modded for me are pretty nice

[Loves2Shoot]

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

Hmm. Are they really that poor? The ones Dan Bedell modded for me are pretty nice

Yes they are, sow's ear into silk purse comes to mind.

[SLM]

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

Hmm. Are they really that poor? The ones Dan Bedell modded for me are pretty nice

Yes they are, sow's ear into silk purse comes to mind.

Yep, my 'smith did a fantastic job on mine. Cost me a pretty penny though. I think a nice bar stock version would sell well.

[shred]

BTW there are at least 4 companies that make the receiver aftermarket and I don't see Ruger sweating it......

.02

Anyway, if he has a way to improve the design then that would be another ball game. He still would have to come up with the grip as what Chuck says is right. You pop out a frame with no grip and start telling people just to call up Chuck and buy one and STI gets wind of it. They are likely to play hardball and none of us will find grips anymore unless we buy complete frames from STI. This is if he wants to go hog wild and start producing a lot of them. A few for friends or if they end up in a few custom builds and I don't think it would hurt anything, several hundred well.....

More than likely he'd just get a nice "Cease and Desist" letter from STI's lawyers. Lawyers are cheap and making one half of the patented item, even with modifications would still be infringement, probably willful infringement and treble damages if they wanted to push it.

NB, the basic Ruger 10/22 frame is not under patent protection.

[steel1212]

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

Hmm. Are they really that poor? The ones Dan Bedell modded for me are pretty nice

Junk TO START WITH, sure after a few hours of working with the things to get them fitted and looking right they look and work great...I'll stick with Ed Browns or SVIs for half or the same price but takes less time to get right..

Edited September 18, 2008 by steel1212

[BigDave]

Bench top Grizzly?

I don't think so.

Do you think this topic should be banned or censored because I pull the sacred cow's tail?

No, I don't it should be banned or censored. I do think we need to respect the intellectual property rights of others, especially those who support our sport.

[cdrissel]

So, basically what I get from those who posted is this:

It is ok to copy some one else's idea (if not under patent) if the currently produced part is improved or it is not produced by on of the big 2 (STI, Infinity).

On the other hand if the expired patent deals with Mr. Browning's, Mr. Stoner or any other "old" ideas it is OK.

I guess I am a bit confused by this double standard.

I understand that the big two support our sport (USPSA), last time I checked Mr. Voigt was President.

Look guys, at the rate I am going on this project it would be 6 months to a year before I could get all the paperwork (FFL) and resources together to actually produce and sell frames. I'm sure there are a few current companies kicking the idea around. So, don't blame me for wanting to discuss this issue.

[cdrissel]

Bench top Grizzly?

I don't think so.

Do you think this topic should be banned or censored because I pull the sacred cow's tail?

No, I don't it should be banned or censored. I do think we need to respect the intellectual property rights of others, especially those who support our sport.

Huh? Should or should not be banned or censored?

[Flexmoney]

So, basically what I get from those who posted is this:

It is ok to copy some one else's idea (if not under patent) if the currently produced part is improved or it is not produced by on of the big 2 (STI, Infinity).

On the other hand if the expired patent deals with Mr. Browning's, Mr. Stoner or any other "old" ideas it is OK.

I guess I am a bit confused by this double standard.

I understand that the big two support our sport (USPSA), last time I checked Mr. Voigt was President.

Look guys, at the rate I am going on this project it would be 6 months to a year before I could get all the paperwork (FFL) and resources together to actually produce and sell frames. I'm sure there are a few current companies kicking the idea around. So, don't blame me for wanting to discuss this issue.

It is good that you discussed the issue. On the same level, you might get feedback that you don't like or don't want to agree with.

That "double standard" that you bring up... Well, that is a big part of your market, I'd think. Better to learn about it now?

To be honest, the practical competition crowd can be a bit fickle. I've been reading posts on this forum (and quite a few others) for years. I'm often surprised at what floats and what doesn't. I do hear a whole lot of "buy from them, because they support our sport".

It sounds like you are now leaning toward low production, extra quality?

[steel1212]

My main thing is if your just going to copy the product I'm going to buy from STI and have a chance at contingency and all the other benifits of the big manufacturer. If your going to improve on it drastically you still going to have to do something about the grip part which has been stated would be added cost in getting the molds up and running. As Flex said we can be fickle, and most cases it loyal to a fault. I personlly don't see anything wrong with the STI/SVI frame but like I said if you can improve on it AND come up with grips.

The main thing I think several of us are worried about is if you start producing frames STI will do something to make us want to buy their product and if you don't have a grip mold....well guess what. You know can only get grips with a frame don't like it tuff TRY to find them else where. You make the hole product and don't leave anybody with the sole capability to produce just one part and you have something.

Edited September 18, 2008 by steel1212

[BigDave]

Bench top Grizzly?

I don't think so.

Do you think this topic should be banned or censored because I pull the sacred cow's tail?

No, I don't it should be banned or censored. I do think we need to respect the intellectual property rights of others, especially those who support our sport.

Huh? Should or should not be banned or censored?

Say what you will.