cdrissel Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Does any other company besides STI and SV make 2011 frames? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasquatch981 Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 SPS does, but there are all the copyright issues with them, and I don't belive they are imported to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 (edited) If you want a great read, the original patent can be found here: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat5293708.pdf http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/patd344125.pdf I love reading this stuff for some odd reason... The original patents for the 1911 are out there also and are a little harder to read, but are also fascinating. - -- Did ya know that JMB DID intent the slide stop to be a slide release as well and all the internet nonsense about slingslotting is bs? Read the patent! S. Edited September 9, 2008 by Sethmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 The patent is on the grip I believe. The frame is just a machined peice of metal(I know it is more) but the patent is on the grip for sti/svi . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 I heard of another company already working on making a few models for the US and Euro market. Should be cool to have another competitive brand for IPSC guns and parts… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 (edited) Martin. There are several different pieces to their puzzle: D347256 Combined grip and trigger guard for a handgun 5293708 Frame/handgrip assembly for autoloading handgun D345002 Combined frame with grip for handguns D344125 Gripless frame for a handgun I read it as 4 different patents. Again, not an attorney, but I've submitted work for patents with an engineer. Edited September 8, 2008 by Sethmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Does any other company besides STI and SV make 2011 frames? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Yes ... why ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrissel Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Yes ... why ? I was thinking about starting a business making them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) Why not make the old style coke bottles ? I bet the profit margin is better. The ones with that take a bottle opener to open and thin you have that coke cap to cut your foot on. Sorry Boy I get sarcastic late at night .... Flex is rite , I would be one of the loyal STI guys Edited September 9, 2008 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Yes ... why ? I was thinking about starting a business making them. Grips too, or just frames? Unless you made your own grips, you'd be buying through your competition. Magazines? If there are no patent issues... Then there might be a very small market. STI really has this market (competition shooters) cornered with their contingency program. SV makes great parts out of billet. Hard to crack them too. They are experienced and innovative. Both companies are supporters of our sport(s). And, have loyal customers. I have saw where (on other forums) guys had made copies of the frame on their cnc mills. I don't know enough about machine time and milling operations to know if the effort would be worth the reward. Looks like lots of operations and lots of setup time from what I've seen so far. If you were a master machinist and had the machine time, I'd almost have to believe there are more profitable things to make than 2011 frames. What is your market? Realistically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 You could probably turn a higher profit margin just making 1911/2011 parts. Sights, safties, guide rods, slide-rackers, mag releases, scope-mounts. Pick one. Pick something people are always replacing for one reason or another (breakages or personal likes & dislikes). Something that doesn't require critical processes (barrels, sears, etc.) Or go the innovative route and make a standard part better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Geez, what a bunch of negative nellies. Maybe the guy has some original ideas. Like making the grip out of a different material (okay, not original but I've only seen one grip in Aluminum so far) or making something that STI/SV hasn't. Heck, I always hear people complain about the lack of availability of something, grips, purple grips, aluminum frames, single stack grips. If he can come up with something, more power to him. To get back to your original question. Progressive Machine and Tool has an aluminum grip assembly in the works. I've seen a working prototype on Steve's gun and it looked interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisStock Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Geez, what a bunch of negative nellies. Maybe the guy has some original ideas. Like making the grip out of a different material (okay, not original but I've only seen one grip in Aluminum so far) or making something that STI/SV hasn't. Heck, I always hear people complain about the lack of availability of something, grips, purple grips, aluminum frames, single stack grips. If he can come up with something, more power to him. Seriously.... For the OP, yes, there are prototypes and one-offs floating around, but no one has come up with a design that is fundamentally more sound. If you have an idea and are so inspired and have the means, GO FOR IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Another company makings guns and parts will be good for shooters. Maybe they will be making better gun and parts, but most of all another supporter for the sport as well. Think about what S&W has been doing for the pass few years. They are making good products and supporting every match out there. You would be surprise how big the European market is and how profitable it can be as well both for parts and guns… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Since SV is not selling just their frame anymore maybe it is the perfect timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 The thought of a new vendor selling STI/SVI type frames and what have you, is great. It is part of the American Spirit of competition in the market place. Maybe it will be less expensive or better quality. Who knows what they will offer and what improvements, if any, they will have. You never know, they (new manufacturer) may support the sport as much or more than the originals companies. I'm saying GOD bless America...go for it! Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrissel Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Here are my thoughts, so far.... First, thanks for all the replies and opinions. I am new to this forum; I truly appreciate and respect everyone’s thoughts. My back ground - Graduate of Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing program (1997), 2 year Tool and Die Degree, almost 10 years machinist/tool maker (injection molds). I work in a small (3 people) job shop. We make camera parts for our main customer. We use 4 VMC CNC machines (2 Fadals and 2 Haas'). I don’t think molding grips is profitable at this time. I was looking into machining just frames, out of Aluminum, 4140, 416 and Titanium ($$$) I want to do some minor re-design of the dust cover. Was thinking about creating an interchangeable system? All thoughts and comments welcome. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 My only thought would be to make 100% certain that your not infringing on their intellectual property or patents. Tripp and Strayer created a platform that took competitive firearms to a whole new level and they deserve every bit of credit and respect due. If there are licensing fees due, I'm certain that they'd be cheaper than litigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 The problem isnt the frame but the grip. The mold to make a grip is around 150k from what i hear. And why SV buys grips from STI instead of making their own. There have been some attempts at Aluminum grips but the jury is still out on them. I think the recoil impulse will be harder and they wont hold up as long as polymer. We will have to see though. The Aluminum grips will be much higher priced than the current polymer. I would instead try to find a new design that is revolutionary, like when STI's came out, instead of just copying somebody elses old design. Preferably something that would be attractive to the main stream and not just the competition market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Barsto is making frames under license from STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrissel Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 My only thought would be to make 100% certain that your not infringing on their intellectual property or patents. Tripp and Strayer created a platform that took competitive firearms to a whole new level and they deserve every bit of credit and respect due. If there are licensing fees due, I'm certain that they'd be cheaper than litigation. I totally agree. I am only in the initial process of doing the research. My thoughts on intellectual property and patent rights - there is a reason patents expire, it allows the inventor(s) to recover their costs and make a profit for a know amount of time. The vast majority of the parts we use in 1911 type guns were at one time under patent restrictions, but once they expired the market and competition took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrissel Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Yes ... why ? I was thinking about starting a business making them. Grips too, or just frames? Unless you made your own grips, you'd be buying through your competition. Magazines? If there are no patent issues... Then there might be a very small market. STI really has this market (competition shooters) cornered with their contingency program. SV makes great parts out of billet. Hard to crack them too. They are experienced and innovative. Both companies are supporters of our sport(s). And, have loyal customers. I have saw where (on other forums) guys had made copies of the frame on their cnc mills. I don't know enough about machine time and milling operations to know if the effort would be worth the reward. Looks like lots of operations and lots of setup time from what I've seen so far. If you were a master machinist and had the machine time, I'd almost have to believe there are more profitable things to make than 2011 frames. What is your market? Realistically? Flex, is this the correct forum for this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 My only thought would be to make 100% certain that your not infringing on their intellectual property or patents. Tripp and Strayer created a platform that took competitive firearms to a whole new level and they deserve every bit of credit and respect due. If there are licensing fees due, I'm certain that they'd be cheaper than litigation. I totally agree. I am only in the initial process of doing the research. My thoughts on intellectual property and patent rights - there is a reason patents expire, it allows the inventor(s) to recover their costs and make a profit for a know amount of time. The vast majority of the parts we use in 1911 type guns were at one time under patent restrictions, but once they expired the market and competition took over. What is legal isnt always also ethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrissel Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 My only thought would be to make 100% certain that your not infringing on their intellectual property or patents. Tripp and Strayer created a platform that took competitive firearms to a whole new level and they deserve every bit of credit and respect due. If there are licensing fees due, I'm certain that they'd be cheaper than litigation. I totally agree. I am only in the initial process of doing the research. My thoughts on intellectual property and patent rights - there is a reason patents expire, it allows the inventor(s) to recover their costs and make a profit for a know amount of time. The vast majority of the parts we use in 1911 type guns were at one time under patent restrictions, but once they expired the market and competition took over. What is legal isnt always also ethical. So, only the original 1911 patent holder or manufacturers licensed by the patent holder should be allowed (ethically) to manufacture patented 1911 parts? Wouldn't this logic call all 1911 and 2011 parts makers other than the original 1911 patent holder or manufacturers licensed by the patent holder unethical? I think the legal vs. ethical question is a valid one and would like to hear more opinions. Lets take a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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