Who else makes 2011 frames?

[shred]

The STI patent doesn't expire until 2011, last I checked.

It covers the combination of the metal frame and grip. It is only a US patent, hence why SPS is making clones in Europe (and also why they can import magazines (not covered) but not frame/grips (covered))

Seeing as how they've already amortized all the costs of making the things, tooling, molds and all, I'm having a little difficulty seeing how somebody that hadn't could make money at it, but hey, give it a shot... in 2011 or so.

[Brazos Custom]

I asked Dave Skinner when I saw him at Nationals and he said it expires in 2011.

[Brazos Custom]

Just found this info: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=2434

The way I read it the patent expires 20 years from filing or 17 years from issue. That would make it expire in 2012.

Design patents run 14 years.

[ChuckS]

From the USPTO website:

"A patent for an invention is a grant of property rights by the U.S. Government through the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The patent grant excludes others from making, using, or selling the invention in the United States. A utility or plant patent in force on June 8, 1995, is subject to either the 17 year term from grant or the 20 year term from earliest effective U.S. filing date, whichever is longer. A design patent term is 14 years from patent grant. The right conferred by the patent grant extends throughout the United States. The terms "Patent Pending" and "Patent Applied For" are used to inform the public that an application for a patent has been filed. Patent protection does not start until the actual grant of a patent. Marking of an article as patented, when it is not, is illegal and subject to penalty. "

If the patents above are design patents, then it is 14 years. The others are 17/20 but only for patents in force on 8 June 95. Neither of these were in force then. Dunno what that means.

The document for US00D344125S indicates a 14 year term based on the date of 8 Feb 1994. Anybody a patent lawyer out there?

Later,

Chuck

[scirocco38s]

Patent infringement is a civil issue and not a criminal offense, therefore, you cannot be arrested for violation. The worst case is to have a Judge order you to stop selling and then sometimes down the road have to pay damages for the amount of sales. You may have heard Mr. Kimble say he would have them arrested, but it was a hollow threat.

Also, if I buy something that is a copy of something covered by a patent I am not in violation of anything. The company producing them to sell is the violator.

There only has to be a 10% change in the design to get around a patent, anyway.

If the grip is a patent item, then how does SPS sell them or put them on their guns, is it different in some way?

Guys, leave the man alone. He is trying to fulfill a dream and just because you have an interest in a particular product or manufacture doesn't mean that he is going to put them out of business. He was asking an innocent question and wanted pointers. Did any of you dogs bark on others bringing out copies of anything, ever. I doubt it. Then why bark at one of your own?

Give him the help he ask and see where it goes.

Buddy

I am only telling you what I know. SPS can sell the grip on the international market because there are US patents and International Patents. If STI?SVI allowed the patent to lapse and did not renew it then it would then become public property, and no royalties would have to be paid. Besides, paying the royalty might still be cheaper than importing the othe product when you figure in tariffs and VAT. International patents also arent issued for as long as US patents are.

I dont want to discourage the guy from starting up his own company and building frames, I think it would be good. I dont have an interest in either of the companies and I own product from both. If he can build a better mousetrap for less then it will effect the market either positively or negatively and I dont know which it will be.

If sti starts to control the number of grips that are on the market so others cannot capitalize on the design, I would be dissapointed but not surprised. Maybe that is one of the reasons that SV is build a new grip machined from metal, so if something like this happens they can still control their destiny.

[cdrissel]

What will you do for the grip. If it gets to be an issue I can guarantee STI will either cut off grip supply(they did it before!) or make them very expensive. You cant expect them to play nice when this happens. AS cut throat as most of you are then you should expect it and understand it.

I don't plan on building finished guns. I want to make high quality frames only, that gun builders and gunsmiths can use to build their guns on.

I'd like to offer frames in standard configurations as well as custom orders. Dust cover options, extra material, better finish, custom serial numbers, Aluminum, 4140, 416....

[cdrissel]

Just found this info: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=2434

The way I read it the patent expires 20 years from filing or 17 years from issue. That would make it expire in 2012.

Design patents run 14 years.

Good find!

I will defiantly have to hire a lawyer soon.

[chuckbradley]

What will you do for the grip. If it gets to be an issue I can guarantee STI will either cut off grip supply(they did it before!) or make them very expensive. You cant expect them to play nice when this happens. AS cut throat as most of you are then you should expect it and understand it.

I don't plan on building finished guns. I want to make high quality frames only, that gun builders and gunsmiths can use to build their guns on.

I'd like to offer frames in standard configurations as well as custom orders. Dust cover options, extra material, better finish, custom serial numbers, Aluminum, 4140, 416....

STI sells frames also. They also sell grips separately now. If you were to build the frame alone the buyer would need a grip. If this happens(by you are somebody else) I am pretty confident the supply of grips will dry up and STI will only offer them with a complete frame or grip. This will effect most peoples purchase decision. They arent going to buy STI frame kits and also your reciever.

Another thread said SV was coming out with a metal grip but at 400.00 who is going to go that route. Undoubtedly a few will but not that many. I know of another company doing an aluminum grip. Not sure how they will hold up, how they will actually perform compared to the polymer or the price. I do think it will be much higher than the polymer also. So this is the basis of saying its not a good business decision. I believe it will be time wasted you could have spent doing something else that would sell. You would be better off making barrels & slides, or even some barstock amby safeties at a reasonable price. i would sell those for you. A real 9mm breachface slide with the ejector tunnel moved to accompany the breechface. And the ejector to go along with it.

I dont mean to be so negative, and I am not worried about the frame competition. STI is in a better position to compete with anybody. They already know the in/outs of machining that part. They have 18 years of experience with it(?) They are in a better position to compete on the business level also. I am worried that grip supply will disappear and I sell allot of grips , both stock and pre-stippled. Thats why I dont want to see it happen. Now if you are willing to get a mold made to do the grips then you may have something.

[Jon Merricks]

I hate to drift this thread, but I had a grip from ASP years ago and I'm pretty sure that is was not made by STI or SV. Maybe you could partner up with whoever was making them for Jim or Jim. When the Infinity frames were for sell they cost more and people were willing to pay the extra.

Chuck also has a valid point about the grips and the slides. A true 9mm slide would be great.

[uscbigdawg]

Jon,

A lot of times, Jim was getting the grips that STI didn't want or didn't sell a lot of (green) and then working his magic on them.

Rich

[cdrissel]

Chuck

I don't think you are being negative. I want to be realistic. I started this topic to see what other shooters, gunsmiths and suppliers thought. I respect and appreciate everyone’s opinions and thoughts.

PM me about what you would like to see as far as a bar stock thumb safety.

Thanks

Edited September 17, 2008 by SpottyB

[chuckbradley]

Chuck

I don't think you are being negative. I want to be realistic. I started this topic to see what other shooters, gunsmiths and suppliers thought. I respect and appreciate everyone’s opinions and thoughts.

I will take another look at the grips. My first thoughts were "wow, this would take a complex mold” There might be some other ways of looking at it.

PM me about what you would like to see as far as a bar stock thumb safety.

Thanks

From what i was told they paid 75k for the mold back then. it would cost 150k today is the general consensus and why SV didnt make a new mold once they ran out, in my opinion. They now buy from STI, dont know the details. SPS makes a grip, they cant import it, every other grip is out of the STI mold.

Edited September 17, 2008 by chuckbradley

[SLM]

.

PM me about what you would like to see as far as a bar stock thumb safety.

Thanks

I'll tell ya' what I'd like to see... A quality shielded Swenson type safety that doesn't require a ton of tuning to get it all lined up before you can start to fit it!

[cdrissel]

Edited September 17, 2008 by SpottyB

[cdrissel]

.

PM me about what you would like to see as far as a bar stock thumb safety.

Thanks

I'll tell ya' what I'd like to see... A quality shielded Swenson type safety that doesn't require a ton of tuning to get it all lined up before you can start to fit it!

What kind of tuning do you need to do before fitting it?

[uscbigdawg]

More than a little. It's a pain.

Rich

[SLM]

Yep yep! My 'smith told me I spent more to get it straight and square before he could actually put it in the frame than I did to buy it and fit it... and the things run $80.00 to $90.00 bucks to begin with! But I love it as I have smallish hands and have real trouble not riding the slide with an unshielded safety. I'd gladly pay $100.00ish for one that fits out of the package.

[Jon Merricks]

Jon,

A lot of times, Jim was getting the grips that STI didn't want or didn't sell a lot of (green) and then working his magic on them.

Rich

and mine just happened to be green. The material seem to be diffrent too.

[fastshooter03]

I tried to get 2011 frames without the grips a few years ago. I shot with Mr Skinner at the '05 nat's and asked if he was selling just the frame without the grip. He said yes. I had my FFL guy try to get some from STI. They said no.

I have at LEAST 3 extra grips at home which is the reason for wanting just the frame.

IF STI won't do it then I'll buy from somebody who will. Those 3 grips aren't doing anything and I can't get much selling them outright.

I started writing programs for machining a couple of my own years ago and just gave up due to the costs and time involved. Other projects came up for 3-gun stuff as well....

Yes, the reason is cost. The grip frame alone is $100ish. So I figured it would be great to get a frame for just over $300(back then).

AR lowers are still about $125. You can't tell me that the 2011 frame is any more time consuming or difficult to make than an AR lower. I know they sell a crapload more AR lowers than 2011 frames but still....

Am I the ONLY person that wants S_I frames without the grip??? I doubt it.

If Spottyb makes a good product then I will buy 3 for sure if the price is good.

I think it's awesome that STI has the contingency program and I will continue to use those frames for that purpose but I use 2011 frames for things other than competition and I wouldn't feel bad for using another makers frame.

I was told the 2011 frames are actually made here in WI so maybe I could take a trip over there and make an order

If only it was that easy!

Nick

[cdrissel]

I tried to get 2011 frames without the grips a few years ago. I shot with Mr Skinner at the '05 nat's and asked if he was selling just the frame without the grip. He said yes. I had my FFL guy try to get some from STI. They said no.

I have at LEAST 3 extra grips at home which is the reason for wanting just the frame.

IF STI won't do it then I'll buy from somebody who will. Those 3 grips aren't doing anything and I can't get much selling them outright.

I started writing programs for machining a couple of my own years ago and just gave up due to the costs and time involved. Other projects came up for 3-gun stuff as well....

Yes, the reason is cost. The grip frame alone is $100ish. So I figured it would be great to get a frame for just over $300(back then).

AR lowers are still about $125. You can't tell me that the 2011 frame is any more time consuming or difficult to make than an AR lower. I know they sell a crapload more AR lowers than 2011 frames but still....

Am I the ONLY person that wants S_I frames without the grip??? I doubt it.

If Spottyb makes a good product then I will buy 3 for sure if the price is good.

I think it's awesome that STI has the contingency program and I will continue to use those frames for that purpose but I use 2011 frames for things other than competition and I wouldn't feel bad for using another makers frame.

I was told the 2011 frames are actually made here in WI so maybe I could take a trip over there and make an order

If only it was that easy!

Nick

Nick,

The AR's I’ve made for myself are a bit easier, since they are Aluminum and you don't need any special tooling. I think I could make them (2011 frames only – in the white) for just over $300, but I still need to crank out a few to see what the real cycle time will be. Plus the cost of tooling, material and heat treat. AND TAXES!!

Edited September 16, 2008 by SpottyB

[shred]

On patents: the main STI patent is a "Utility patent". The ones with D's in front of the number are Design patents. Design patents have much less 'strength' to them and are relatively easy to work around. The main STI utility patent is not easy to get around unless you are outside of the US. The 'pick the best date of 17-years-from-grant or 20-years from filing' does apply to it.

One other point-- the IPSC shooting/vendor community is very small and direct knockoffs aren't usually well-received. There are a lot of parts out there (excepting standard 1911 parts) that aren't patented, but very rarely copied directly. Witness the furor not too long ago around a new gunsmith doing slide cuts that were similar to another smiths, for one.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think I could make them (2011 frames only – in the white) for just over $300, but I still need to crank out a few to see what the real cycle time will be. Plus the cost of tooling, material and heat treat. AND TAXES!!

Don't forget distributor and dealer margins, advertising, support staff, admins costs, sponsorships and a contingency program.

If you do not make major improvements or innovations, it will be a very tough road to hoe to copy a product and sell it for the same price as the established product.

As Shred said, it is a small market, and many people who could make their own frames, buy them from STI. Ask yourself why they would buy the frames and not make them? These folks make very excellent products and yet buy a part they could make easily. Are they stupid or do they know how to do the "real" math and know the market dynamics?

How much money could you really make just making knocking off frames charging the same price? How many 2011 units are sold per year? How much would it cost to get 10% of that market? What can you do to make your product a better value (most custom gun buyers don't buy on price.)

Without that info (minimum), you might as well start piling up the money and get out the matches.

Everyone in "the business" knows who innovate and who just try to low ball cheap products and sell on price. The ones who are hacks don't make it in the custom gun world, they run around chasing the next thing to try to make work. The ones who innovate and make great products and stand behind them, have as much work as they can handle (or more.)

[cdrissel]

I think I could make them (2011 frames only – in the white) for just over $300, but I still need to crank out a few to see what the real cycle time will be. Plus the cost of tooling, material and heat treat. AND TAXES!!

Don't forget distributor and dealer margins, advertising, support staff, admins costs, sponsorships and a contingency program.

If you do not make major improvements or innovations, it will be a very tough road to hoe to copy a product and sell it for the same price as the established product.

As Shred said, it is a small market, and many people who could make their own frames, buy them from STI. Ask yourself why they would buy the frames and not make them? These folks make very excellent products and yet buy a part they could make easily. Are they stupid or do they know how to do the "real" math and know the market dynamics?

How much money could you really make just making knocking off frames charging the same price? How many 2011 units are sold per year? How much would it cost to get 10% of that market? What can you do to make your product a better value (most custom gun buyers don't buy on price.)

Without that info (minimum), you might as well start piling up the money and get out the matches.

Everyone in "the business" knows who innovate and who just try to low ball cheap products and sell on price. The ones who are hacks don't make it in the custom gun world, they run around chasing the next thing to try to make work. The ones who innovate and make great products and stand behind them, have as much work as they can handle (or more.)

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

I guess there is no point in competing in "the business". I might just want to make a high quality product. Profit and money might not be my prime goal.

I think there might be several gun builders out there that want to start a custom project using a high end custom ordered frame. I wouldn’t dream of competing with STI or Infinity. Unless I build a better grip mold.

Finally, I have no interest in "distributor and dealer margins, advertising, support staff, admins costs, sponsorships and a contingency program"; I work in a small machine shop and love my job.

[Chuck Anderson]

Do what you want. I like the idea of what you are planning. BTW, Mike Hughes is a patent attorney in Washington State. He's also a really good USPSA competitor. Might be worth giving him a call on the patent issues. It sounds like you have some ideas for different features that are not currently made by SV or STI. Good. There are certain things that a very small level producer is going to be able to do that a major manufacturer can't. It's not worth it to STI or SV to shut down a production line to make a one off frame with a certain feature. If you can fill the niche cool.

I doubt STI would quit selling grips completely. It would be a horrible marketing decision. Especially since 80-90 % (my guess) of folks who shoot USPSA modify their grips in some way. There is no way I would buy a gun for $1700.00, undercut the trigger guard a bit too much and find out I can't get another grip for it. My guess is they might change their distribution model and only sell them factory direct at retail, or to manufacturers they approve of, such as SV or Bar-Sto. It would cut into some distributors pockets to do it that way but grips would still be available to shooters.

[Loves2Shoot]

Wow.

I think you are missing my point. I don't plan to "just making knocking off frames" or "just try to low ball cheap products".

I guess there is no point in competing in "the business". I might just want to make a high quality product. Profit and money might not be my prime goal.

I think there might be several gun builders out there that want to start a custom project using a high end custom ordered frame. I wouldn’t dream of competing with STI or Infinity.

If you want to do it as a hobby, that is much different that doing it for business. "I was thinking about starting a business making them." It sounded like you wanted to make spec STI frames (which is in my thinking a knocking off them.) Competition is great, but to compete with good companies, it is very hard just copying their designs and selling it for the same price or for a little less. In my mind competing would be making a new/better frame and not making it to their specs.

I didn't mean to come off like I think you just copy designs and make cheap stuff, reality is their are people can only do that. I didn't get "I want to make something new and improved" from your original posts. I was trying to be helpful with the other things it takes to do it "as a business" that a lot of people over look.