Who else makes 2011 frames?

[jjanglin]

Swenson safties are junky looking and crooked but can be UNJUNKED

Id try a new frame but if I could Id talk everyone into using Caspian Hi-Caps

Jim/PA

Sailors

[Flexmoney]

A new (and different) frame would have to go in Open division, right? It wouldn't be legal in Limited until 500 were produced, if I recall correctly?

[Flexmoney]

...if I could Id talk everyone into using Caspian Hi-Caps

Jim, could you elaborate on that a bit? (I couldn't tell if you were serious and liked Caspain hi-caps or if you were being sarcastic...that smiley face with the rolling eyes throws me off??)

[uscbigdawg]

Correct

[buddy_fuentes]

Anyone look at the vote lately?

Lets suppose that SpottyB goes into business and makes a frame. He starts selling them and at that point you can make a decision, buy the STI, SPS, SVI, or the Spotty. Very simple...buy whatever makes you feel you have made the best purchase for yourself.

If it is less expensive and good quality, too.........some of the self righteous will be buying them and probably not telling anyone.

Some of the matches in our area draw people that are not USPSA members. They are not interested if Spotty supports the sport (however I'm sure he would) or anything else. They would buy something that will give them more bang for the buck.

I was noticing the vote, has anyone else?

Buddy

[steel1212]

I have no problem with him making the frames, but why if he isn't going to improve on them? Also, if only one company is making the grips for the frames, and you piss them off then what?

[Chuck Anderson]

A new (and different) frame would have to go in Open division, right? It wouldn't be legal in Limited until 500 were produced, if I recall correctly?

I was curious about that myself. If it is a direct copy of STI/SV I think they would have a hard time with that argument. I think the fact that there are probably 30 some odd 1911 manufacturers out there would help the cause. If it is an "improved" or modified design, that would probably be subject to the 500 unit rule.

(As a thread hijack, USPSA really needs to stop making some of these weird double standard calls. You can't use a Sighttracker 9mm bbl in a 5' or 6" configuration but you can use it in .40. Their logic is that there haven't been enough in that caliber. Anybody look at the guns of Jarrett and Leatham? How many 6" .40 cal Paras have been produced, how many 6" .40 Springfield Hi-Caps. I'm not saying they were wrong to use them but I have a hard time seeing the difference.)

[Flexmoney]

A new (and different) frame would have to go in Open division, right? It wouldn't be legal in Limited until 500 were produced, if I recall correctly?

I was curious about that myself. If it is a direct copy of STI/SV I think they would have a hard time with that argument. I think the fact that there are probably 30 some odd 1911 manufacturers out there would help the cause. If it is an "improved" or modified design, that would probably be subject to the 500 unit rule.

That is my take on it too, Chuck.

(As a thread hijack, USPSA really needs to stop making some of these weird double standard calls. You can't use a Sighttracker 9mm bbl in a 5' or 6" configuration but you can use it in .40. Their logic is that there haven't been enough in that caliber. Anybody look at the guns of Jarrett and Leatham? How many 6" .40 cal Paras have been produced, how many 6" .40 Springfield Hi-Caps. I'm not saying they were wrong to use them but I have a hard time seeing the difference.)

That falls under the "or components" clause. Which, yeah...blows around like a fart in the wind.

[steel1212]

A new (and different) frame would have to go in Open division, right? It wouldn't be legal in Limited until 500 were produced, if I recall correctly?

I was curious about that myself. If it is a direct copy of STI/SV I think they would have a hard time with that argument. I think the fact that there are probably 30 some odd 1911 manufacturers out there would help the cause. If it is an "improved" or modified design, that would probably be subject to the 500 unit rule.

That is my take on it too, Chuck.

(As a thread hijack, USPSA really needs to stop making some of these weird double standard calls. You can't use a Sighttracker 9mm bbl in a 5' or 6" configuration but you can use it in .40. Their logic is that there haven't been enough in that caliber. Anybody look at the guns of Jarrett and Leatham? How many 6" .40 cal Paras have been produced, how many 6" .40 Springfield Hi-Caps. I'm not saying they were wrong to use them but I have a hard time seeing the difference.)

That falls under the "or components" clause. Which, yeah...blows around like a fart in the wind.

IF you ask every 1911 maker out there wouldn't they say they "improved" JMB design somewhat?

[ebg3]

A better made/designed shielded safety should be well received. Nothing sucks more than working on a set of "Swenson's" for half a day only to have them break after only a little use. I've gone back to Ed Brown's or STI's and a Brazo's thumb shield(which is awesome). It would be a nightmare to have to fit another set of "Swenson's" on my gun.

EG

[cdrissel]

Bench top Grizzly?

I don't think so.

Do you think this topic should be banned or censored because I pull the sacred cow's tail?

No, I don't it should be banned or censored. I do think we need to respect the intellectual property rights of others, especially those who support our sport.

Huh? Should or should not be banned or censored?

Say what you will.

BigDave,

I was just asking if you thought it should or should not be banned. Your statement “No, I don't it should be banned or censored." is not clear to me.

[Merlin Orr]

In the words of Rick Nelson... " Well you can't please everyone so you..got to please yourself."

[cdrissel]

So, basically what I get from those who posted is this:

It is ok to copy some one else's idea (if not under patent) if the currently produced part is improved or it is not produced by on of the big 2 (STI, Infinity).

On the other hand if the expired patent deals with Mr. Browning's, Mr. Stoner or any other "old" ideas it is OK.

I guess I am a bit confused by this double standard.

I understand that the big two support our sport (USPSA), last time I checked Mr. Voigt was President.

Look guys, at the rate I am going on this project it would be 6 months to a year before I could get all the paperwork (FFL) and resources together to actually produce and sell frames. I'm sure there are a few current companies kicking the idea around. So, don't blame me for wanting to discuss this issue.

Sorry about this rant. I didn't get enough coffee this morning.

I was not trying to imply that MV's position as President of USPSA was in any way a conflict of interest. I was trying to say he supports our sport.

My bad.

[mpolans]

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

Hmm. Are they really that poor? The ones Dan Bedell modded for me are pretty nice

Yeah, and how much did that cost? I bet it over $50-60 for the part+mods.

[larry cazes]

I still would like to see a nice bar stock Swenson. I would use Swenson's if they weren't junk to start with.

Hmm. Are they really that poor? The ones Dan Bedell modded for me are pretty nice

Yeah, and how much did that cost? I bet it over $50-60 for the part+mods.

I dont know. I had him add them onto a full custom open build he did for me last year. The whole gun was very reasonable for the parts he used and the quality of the work. I had him cut the height down by 50% or so. I like to ride the safety and I dont like to feel my thumb rubbing on the slide and these did the trick.

[Joe D]

I have long held the position that STI/SVI guns are grossly overpriced. I realize that position is like slapping some of those that post on this forum mothers. I see many posts where a $1,800 STI needs a "tune up package" from various retailers before they are suitable for competition. What????? A gun that costs that much money should be perfect. I can purchase a Les Baer PII that is twice the gun quality wise for less money.

How is it that a BUL M5 can be had for less that half the cost of a STI?

There are those that think the Contingency Program is free. Every time you purchase a STI gun or part you are paying for the Contingency Program.

[Irishlad]

What...no one "jumped on" a frame without a grip safety?

[chuckbradley]

I have long held the position that STI/SVI guns are grossly overpriced. I realize that position is like slapping some of those that post on this forum mothers. I see many posts where a $1,800 STI needs a "tune up package" from various retailers before they are suitable for competition. What????? A gun that costs that much money should be perfect. I can purchase a Les Baer PII that is twice the gun quality wise for less money.

How is it that a BUL M5 can be had for less that half the cost of a STI?

There are those that think the Contingency Program is free. Every time you purchase a STI gun or part you are paying for the Contingency Program.

In the past the STI and SV's needed some tune up work frequently. I can tell you that all the stuff that was being done as tune up work, STI is pretty much doing at the factory now. Most problems with these guns come from user error. Allot is mags , components just thrown in mags, ammo that isnt right or just plain operator error. We had a guy buy a 9mm Trubor last week. He called us to say he was very unhappy, said his gun jammed every round. So we started asking questions. He was shooting factory ammo. These guns are set up to run major power factor ammo and do need to be broken in.

As far as the price. Yes there is a premium on the frame. The mold to do the grip was very expensive to make. The design is the best so far. There is no comparison to what you get in an STI and what others offer. It is the best applicable firearm for the sport. If it wasn't it wouldn't be so popular. There is a reason the STI design is the holly grail, they earned that distinction and its been proven in competition and chosen by the competitors. And yes for that there is a small premium on the frame. Some of that premium is actual increased production costs over the mainstream gun.

In my opinion they are worth every penny. When I first started in 93 I shot a glock and a single stack. I said i would never pay 2500 for a race gun, just not worth it. Well 6 months later I did. I then new why they were that high and never questioned it again. Dont get me wrong. I wanted the best value and why I have some of the offerings I do now but the STi configuration just cant be beat. I have no need to even look at other handguns, I already have the best.

[RV man]

My new Trubor even ran factory ammo out of the box. My eagle runs, even when I neglect it and feed it poorly.

I work in an industry where everyone copies each others designs and I personally don't approve of it. If you want to do it...Do it better. Design your own system that is better than the previous one.

Just my .02

Bill

[larry cazes]

I have long held the position that STI/SVI guns are grossly overpriced. I realize that position is like slapping some of those that post on this forum mothers. I see many posts where a $1,800 STI needs a "tune up package" from various retailers before they are suitable for competition. What????? A gun that costs that much money should be perfect. I can purchase a Les Baer PII that is twice the gun quality wise for less money.

How is it that a BUL M5 can be had for less that half the cost of a STI?

There are those that think the Contingency Program is free. Every time you purchase a STI gun or part you are paying for the Contingency Program.

BUL M5 Vs. STI full custom build.....You are comparing apples to oranges and yes if we were using off the shelf guns all in the same configuration with off the shelf mags all the same and factory ammo, there would be no need for tuning up a gun. Not exactly a realistic comparison. There are some very reasonably priced full custom guns available using the STI/SV frame. Premium? Yes. Grossly overpriced? That is a stretch based on the amount of work that goes into these.

[Joe D]

Larry, guess what I was looking at is the actual cost to manufacture the gun. BUL has the same manufacturing costs - polymer frame, slide, barrel and internal parts as STI yet the IPSC Model costs half as much as a STI Edge/Eagle. I have shot several STIs and a couple of BULs. I saw very little difference in quality and no difference in accuracy.

I wish someone other than those "Shooting Experts" at Charles Daly would bring in the BUL guns. I recall a conversation with the BUL factory shooter several years ago about their IPSC model. Seems like it was Saul Kirsch. He told me the IPSC model should have a "street price" of under $900 in the US. That is about half of what the Edge/Eagle sells for.

[Flexmoney]

OK...back on topic, folks.

We don't need a this gun vs. that gun debate.

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[jjanglin]

Im not being sarcastic= I work with Caspian a lot =I feel they are the best platform out their.

caspian folks are a class act.

Their slides are the best for the 9mm open guns, some of the other slides have been a problem with ejection.

The Hi-Cap frame I like better than others .

Jim/PA

Sailors

[kurtb]

How about making a interchangeable gripped CZ/Tanfoglio patterned gun?

[Jaxshooter]

I can vouch for Caspian slides on 9mm open guns. I have two built by Jim that have never had any kind of problems. Both have run 100 % since the day I got them. Same for my 6" Limited gun with Caspian slide built by Jim also.