Palm Pilot scoring

[Alan Meek]

The other "slick" way to do it would be to develop a mid-ware piece that could talk EZWS on one end, and http on the other - any web enabled device could be used to score the match via a web browser (again, assuming WiFi or something on the range). That's obviously more work, but it removes hardware specificity from the picture entirely...

I've always thought that kind of approach would be very cool from another angle. Imagine, at the nationals (or whatever), if we could put "billboards" on each stage showing the top HFs on that stage so far. Real-time wireless score-entry from the RO's handheld to a central scoring computer, which then real-time updates standings and spews them out over wireless to subscribed displays. Voila. As soon as a shooter's run is scored, he/she knows exactly how that score stands up. Could also put "kiosks" around the range that would allow shooters to check their standings in class, in division, in category, or against user-selected competitors. Might take an awful lot of the "our sport isn't spectator-friendly" off the table (look at how cool it is at the Steel Challenge to see times flash by on the big displays!)

It's all completely do-able. All it takes is money and time (of which I have neither <g>)

B

Bruce,

I've had those same thoughts about displaying as much as possible at the stages and kiosks.

Alan

[pskys2]

The other "slick" way to do it would be to develop a mid-ware piece that could talk EZWS on one end, and http on the other - any web enabled device could be used to score the match via a web browser (again, assuming WiFi or something on the range). That's obviously more work, but it removes hardware specificity from the picture entirely...

I've always thought that kind of approach would be very cool from another angle. Imagine, at the nationals (or whatever), if we could put "billboards" on each stage showing the top HFs on that stage so far. Real-time wireless score-entry from the RO's handheld to a central scoring computer, which then real-time updates standings and spews them out over wireless to subscribed displays. Voila. As soon as a shooter's run is scored, he/she knows exactly how that score stands up. Could also put "kiosks" around the range that would allow shooters to check their standings in class, in division, in category, or against user-selected competitors. Might take an awful lot of the "our sport isn't spectator-friendly" off the table (look at how cool it is at the Steel Challenge to see times flash by on the big displays!)

It's all completely do-able. All it takes is money and time (of which I have neither <g>)

B

Just what you need another "Draw" to pull competitors away from their squad. But it would be funny to watch some try to push the envelope for a fast time, only to find they would also need some points to make a decent HF.

Now if you set one up at a vendors table???

[Carmoney]

Did I read this right. The developer spent 5 man years full-time developing this software? That's 10,400 hours!

At $23/hour, that would make him the highest paid individual at USPSA.

Have you ever looked at the executive salaries in the USPSA annual budget? You might be surprised!

[Sestock]

OK, USPSA is about shooting, not IT Technology. Personally as a shooter, I prefer the standard paper scoresheets to the PALM scoring. I have only shot two matches that had PALM scoring, both times I felt a little put off by the system.

FYI, before you jump to conclusions, I have a Palm and it controls my day to day activities at work.

[Flexmoney]

Along those lines...

Moneypenny has a big (portable, 3x4) dry-erase board. When we work majors together, he brings it along. We put squad shooting order on there, along with other interesting stuff. One match, we were posting the fastest times on the stage (not the best hit factor ). Another match, we had something like 66 FTE penalties on the steel on our stage, so we kept a tally of that for everybody to see.

The big board timer displays are nice. My first local club (Rayner's) started out with them. They all crapped out, eventually (RU Ready brand), but they were a nice feature. CED has a big board timer display out now. Those might be good. The time displays go a long way to making things viewer friendly. When I started out, I found it odd that we didn't see them everywhere.

Here is an example (CED Big Board) with Anderson shooting Steel: http://andersonshooting.com/images/video/sc2final.mpg

[ima45dv8]

I'm willing to play this out a bit and see where it goes. Peter has compiled what seems to be a pretty good product with no one else offering a similar solution (as far as I know). One of our Board has already mentioned that he is not buying in at an astronomical cost, so I feel comfortable that we (the members) are well-represented and well-protected at this point. That's what we want from the BoD, right? I'm all for letting this develop and see what comes out the other side. I wish him the best of luck, as I do the members of USPSA, who could be the satisfied beneificiaries of his efforts.

I suspect it has some warts and blemishes, and doesn't meet everyone's ideal of a perfect product on a perfect platform, but the same could be said of some girls I've been out with.

Time for caution as we proceed? Yes.

Time for some optimism? Also, yes.

[wgnoyes]

...The ideal solution as I see it would be for IPSC to dump their WinMSS and use EWS that Rob informs me now handles all the IPSC divisions. True international grading would then exist. ...

Question: does this work at all with WinMSS now? Bn

[Mapzter]

Dear Peter,

The ideal solution as I see it would be for IPSC to dump their WinMSS and use EWS that Rob informs me now handles all the IPSC divisions. True international grading would then exist. If that were the case, then the $15 per annum could be reduced to $5 per annum, which is peanuts money to an individual.

$5 may be peanuts, but if you as an individual or IPSC region do not feel you have the need for a portable/palm scoring system, why should you subsidise those that do? IMHO, let those that want the system pay for it.

Is EZ Winscore available for free, like WinMSS is? I see that it is available on CD from the USPSA store for $25.

Best regards,

/Mads

[EZ Bagger]

Is EZ Winscore available for free, like WinMSS is? I see that it is available on CD from the USPSA store for $25.

Best regards,

/Mads

EZ Winscore is essentially free to any USPSA recognized club.

[LChico]

Is EZ Winscore available for free, like WinMSS is? I see that it is available on CD from the USPSA store for $25.

Best regards,

/Mads

EZ Winscore is essentially free to any USPSA recognized club.

Free to the club contact. Back up copies for your stats folks will set you back $25. But as far as I know, any USPSA member can get a copy for $25.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Mapzter]

EZ Winscore is essentially free to any USPSA recognized club.

Thank you. Being that I'm over here i Europe, I guess I'll stick with WinMSS

[JKSNIPER]

Peter ,

Thank you for your efforts.

The system seems ,from all the comments here from people who have actually used it, to work just fine.

Guys posting about the money Peter should or should not make are (IMHO) off base.

Who cares if the guy makes a million bucks?

He had an idea...he did the work on it...now its here and it seems to work just fine.

Paying a few bucks extra in membership fees to cover the cost of this stuff seems reasonable.

If someone else has something better then step up with it.

Lets see how much HE charges for his new & improved system.

The guy made a good product that works and is reasonably priced.

Look at how much money Bill Gates makes every DAY from computers.

You're not going to buy one because he makes too much?

"Maybe....but I kind of fargin doubt it." Lt P.J. Cahill USMC

I was not insulted by your reference to "the almighty dollar" Peter.

Guys who were need to lighten up just a little bit.

I admit people and businesses here in the USA ARE concerned with the bottom line which is how much does it cost us?

Anyone buying gear/weapons/reloading stuff tell me you NEVER consider the price of the item when shopping for yourself?

If the system makes it easier for scoring to be recorded and seen at a match, it will be used by USPSA R.O.s, is reasonably priced, then it seems like a good idea whos time has come.

Gentlemen....... just seems like a wee bit too much nit picking going on here.

Give the guy his due and congratulate him for making this possible instead of tearing the guy down.

Just my .02

JK

[Singlestack]

Guys posting about the money Peter should or should not make are (IMHO) off base.

Who cares if the guy makes a million bucks?

I do when its coming out of my pocket and I don't have a choice in the matter.

[EZ Bagger]

Guys posting about the money Peter should or should not make are (IMHO) off base.

Who cares if the guy makes a million bucks?

I do when its coming out of my pocket and I don't have a choice in the matter.

+1 Especially when the marginal benefit to our club is so small compared to the costs.

[JKSNIPER]

I dunno guys.

Seems like a lot of guys shooting in matches like to see their score/place in the match before its all over and they have to wait up to several days to find out how they did compared to everyone else.

To pay a few bucks extra and have the USPSA board make the decisions on it doesn't seem to be unreasonable.

They already decide a lot of stuff that we all have to abide by and have little say in.

One more thing (to me) is no big deal.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but I just don't see where its a really big deal.

Maybe if they were saying it was going to ramp up our membership fees by $50-100 dollars then I could see guys getting a little upset over it.

To each his own I guess.

JK

[shred]

$5 per shooter per year x 20K shooters = $100K every year (and the current proposal is $15/shooter/year).

I still say we get more bang for our buck getting more shooters and places to, you know, shoot.

If we must do this, put out an open bid at $50K + $5k/yr maintenance and evaluate the entrants. If there aren't any suitable ones, then consider raising the bid.

[moverfive]

.....and will the clubs that have already purchased the software get a refund???? I don't think so. So now clubs and folks like us that already have this software get to buy it AGAIN.

Let the individuals and individual clubs purchase the software. And as I stated previously, if a club is big enough, then they will have the resources to buy it outright and even though the costs are not peanuts, it will be worth it to them. Otherwise, if the costs are just too much for a club, then odds are they are too small to really see the full benefit this software offers.

But this idea of forcing everyone to buy the software (each and every year) is just a bad idea.

[Rob Boudrie]

Question: does this work at all with WinMSS now? Bn

No, however, the MSS developer is a very competent individual and could easily add such support if the world leadership requests it.

[Jim Norman]

My additional 2 cents:

The program does work. I will agree 100% with that.

The program is worth only what people are willing to pay for it. Not what it cost to build. If people think that $500 for a club license with unlimited individual reporter only licenses is a good deal they'll buy it in droves. If they think it is a good deal at $1000, it will sell. If on the other hand people think that $50 is too much it will sit on the shelf and collect dust.

Someone else said it first, developmental cost does not equate to selling price. One is a cost, driven by the expenses of the developer, the other is market driven and if the price is set too high then the market will not materialize and the costs will never be even partially recovered, forget about profit.

Do I care how much Peter makes on this? No, actually I wish him all the best. Sadly it appears that the proper market research and planning was not done, or was done only after the expense was incurred. We as members are not under an obligation to make Peter whole again any more than we are under an obligation to make Bill Gates richer. Bill's program leaves most of us little choice but to buy an duse his products. they have so infiltrated our daily lives. Peter's program is nice, but not necessary. Yet.

The bigger problem I have is with the hardware. I know that so many of you have written in that the Palms are available and that they work and are cheap. But they are OLD and obsolete. Non-Phone palms are likely to cease to exist. More and more hand-held electronics are fully or at least more fully integrated than the Palm. If this ran on a blackberry, or an I-Phone, It would be a likely no or at least little-brainer. Many members already have and more are getting these items every day. Old Palms are, well, OLD. I understand that areas of the screens can be dead, can we buy new screens? I know, regardless of what others say that I cannot read my M130 in daylight, except under exactly the right conditions.

Can USPSA use a system like this? YES< 100% in agreement. It would definitely make us more friendly, but at the costs so far that have been bandied about and again beating the horse of Obsolete equipment, not enough to justify charging the membership a quarter of a million dollars a year forever!

Peter, Cross the system over to a modern supported platform. Realize that you might have spent a lot more money than you should have on this and you just might recover a lump of it.

Jim

[Rob Boudrie]

There are really three issues with any system:

1. Is it good enough to be useful? In the case of Peters program, the general consensus is yes.

2. Pricing issues

3. Platform

If matches were well funded, a platform like the Iphone or Pocket PC would make loads of sense. One must also look at practicalities. Consider the nationals: 19 stages, masters, and a few spares means we need about 25 Palms to run the match. We've borrowed most of them, and have only bought 4 ($120) so we can replace any we break and give a "thank you" gift of an extra Palm back to each of the two clubs that have loaned us the units.

Now, consider how far I would have got if I said "I need 25 iPhones (or Pocket PCs) delivered to the nationals MD several days before the match, and for use throughout the event".

The real question is "how much life will one get out of a Palm application". My guess is at least a decade, since there are currently sold Palms that run it, and it's also possible to get emulation software that runs on the Pocket PC (www.styletap.com, $49.95 is one of several choices). If cheap Palms become unavailable, and there are no emulators for current generation products, I expect the vendor will move to meet the marketplace needs.

But... at the present time, trying to sell it on a modern platform might be like updating EzwinScore so it only runs in 64 bit mode.

[shred]

A few people have asked in one way or another why I don't go off and create an equivalent to A.S.S. Answer: because I see no compelling reason to irritate Peter by writing a competing program for what is, at the moment, minimal return. If individuals and local clubs want to spend whatever amount Peter wants to charge for it, they're free to do so with my blessing.

Where I personally draw the line at proposals that I see as wasteful of USPSA's hard-earned dollars, and a large annual software fee for a very variable return is one of those.

[Supermoto]

It the Palm scoring could be intergated with a timer I think we would have a winner. Not only could Clubs use it for matches, but individual shooter would buy one for practice. You could have a palm with a micrphone or a timer that had a touch screen or keypads.

[CDavies]

I agree fully with Rob. Alot of shooters throwing out ideas of what the program should support but noone is volunteering time and resources to do it as Peter did.

I have been buying Palm IIIxe's from Ebay at .01-10.00 each. For the Area 3 match I bought 10 additional units (we now have 20 IIIxe's). Of those units only one looked as if it had been used very much. I also bought a like new Tungsten E for $40. I'm fairly certain our club will be able to use the palms and enjoy the advantages of using the palm scoring system the club owns for many years to come.

Peter has stood behind his product and has supplied us with software upgrades on a regular basis. Any problems I have had with the system has been handled quickly (via email or phone). When we were getting ready to do the Sectional match we had an issue with our system. The problem was totally self induced and not a issue with the Palm scoring system. In a panick I called Peter on his cell phone. I caught him on the interstate traveling to a match. He stopped on the side of the interstate and talked me through my issue. Within a half hour the system was back up and ready to run. Gurantee we won't do an upgrade to our computer system the night before we leave to do a match again.

[shred]

noone is volunteering time and resources to do it as Peter did.

$100K/year forever is volunteering?!? Sign me up!

When Peter first proposed the A.S.S., a lot of people contributed suggestions and ideas to make the development costs much more reasonable (or suggested "you'll never get you $ back going to an outside development house")...

I like the product, but I believe the proposed cost is way off-base for a volume-purchase by USPSA for every member, whether they use it or not.

Sell it on the USPSA web site for $20 with optional $5 updates every year or so and I think it would fly off the shelves.. but only to shooters that would use/want it. If that's 1/4 of USPSA, then the developer gets the same $ and USPSA isn't out a bunch of money.. win-win. If less than a quarter of USPSA wants to spend $20 on it, then maybe that's a signal to USPSA that buying it for those same shooters isn't such a good idea.

[Flexmoney]

I don't think the palms being "obsolete" is an issue. If they run the software, then they aren't really obsolete. Really, that is a benefit to us (that they are generally "obsolete" for their original purpose)...since that makes them readily available and cheap.

Sounds like we can buy 4 of them for about the same price of 1 timer. They are fairly robust machines. I haven't heard any complaints about them not functioning well (other than Jim's personal m130). So, we are probably good there too...on the whole.

To me...pricing is the only issue.