RiggerJJ Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 For those of you that did not shoot Andy Horner's match in Virginia (Blue Ridge Mountain 3 Gun), the 1st match I know of that used this "new" type of scoring; I too was sceptical in regards to the "Horner" scoring method, which I had read about nearly a year ago. I found that during the match, I was making choices on the clock that I wouldn't have even considered in a straight IMGA scored match. I learned (somewhere around the 3rd stage I shot, which was kinda late for me to beat 1st Open shooter Robert Johnson) that your hits really counted, and you HAD to make them, and quickly as well as accurately. You had to just lay there on a rifle target and HIT the darn thing! Reading the wind and reading the range while in the scope really made you or broke you. I think this is REALLY what this sport is about! I could go on with examples regarding pistol and shotgun, but the gist is the same. This type of match will not (thank you Andrew and Daniel!) go the way of other VERY popular shooting competitions that reward stand and shoot speed. We have (at Rocky Mountain) imposed higher penalities on longer "harder" targets, starting back in 2004 I think, to avoid the fiascio at Reno that Cheryl mentioned. Whether it is liked or not, it works. It makes a shooter do his homework before the match, and buckle down and concentrate when under the clock. If we wanted it to be easy (as shooters) we could just use blanks, run thru the stages at top speed, and get a time, fastest shooter wins. But, thats not what we want. We want the challenge! Those of you who are golfers, if it was easy to shoot 6 under par, there wouldn't be anyone playing! So I for one embrace the "Horner" scoring method! Don't be surprised if you see other matches using it in the future. (for the record, RM3G is NOT using it this year) Give it a chance, and shoot some matches that use it. Its going to take some work on the part of everyone involved to get in the groove, Shooters, MDs, Scorekeepers, Scoring program writers, Stage designers, etc. but IMHO it will be good... jj PS; I have yet to figure out just what to do with HE-Man and this scoring... Again, He-Man seems to be a slightly round peg in a square-ish hole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Synopsis of what the "Horner" scoring method is for the uniformed??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 JJ, I think AMU has come up with a decent answer to HM, regarding the short pistol capacity. I spoke with Robbie Johnson at CMMG over dinner and was pleased to hear that considerations have been taken. I think rifle is OK as is. I look forward to shooting FB3G, and will definetly be practicing IDPA type scored matches between now and Dec. just to get used to that type format. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineshootah Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Synopsis of what the "Horner" scoring method is for the uniformed??? Umm... I think I threw out all my score carbons.. The scoring method was very similar to IDPA, points down scoring, however, there were something like 10 second penalties for rifle targets under 100 yards and 15 second penalties for targets over 100 yards. It forced you to engage the long range targets and take time to make the shots. Missed targets were taxed pretty high as I recall as well. It was easy to keep score, and all shooters knew what they had right after they were done. If it wasn't for the L O N G AR stage ( stage 5 maybe 6?) with the 100 yard run to the 1/2 wall with steel out to 400.. I might have been a bit closer to Robbie as well! Can't wait 'till next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 The "Horner" method requires 2 holes on paper with a time penalty for non-A hits. It's something like 1/2 second added for a "C" and 1.5 seconds for a "D". Targets over 100 yards are double penalties. Check out the Blue Ridge Website to be specific. It's similar to IDPA, and uses time instead of points. Andy also counted 2-Gun stages as more points than single gun, and 3-Gun stages as even more. I think it was 100, 125 and 150. I didn't get to go to that match because of school and too many days off! Anyway, hope that helps a little. The idea is to require a little more accuracy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LChico Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 (edited) Synopsis of what the "Horner" scoring method is for the uniformed??? For initial idea posted by Daniel Horner: To see a preview of the changes, please see the following Forum post from last year: Daniel Horner's post on 3 gun scoring modifications To see how they look at Blue Ridge 3 Gun Blue Ridge Mountain 3 Gun Rules or the 2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Match planned for December: 2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Challenge website 3GRules.pdf edited to add: URL to 3 gun at Ft Benning website, and I attached the file. Linda Chico (L-2035) 2008 Blue Ridge 3 Gun Statistician & 2008 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician Edited June 12, 2008 by LChico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Linda Chico is amazing! All those websites, all that information at her fingertips and ready for all of us to see! Thanks Linda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted June 12, 2008 Author Share Posted June 12, 2008 (edited) Trapr, Downloading the FB rules as I type this, looking forward to seeing their answer to the He-Man dilemma... Just an idea, RM3G uses baby cardboard targets sometimes, just to make you aim and get your hits! Kinda our answer to the "Horner" set of rules (before the Horner rules came out), but without having to make the ROs learn a new scoring system... and the high penalty long range has been there for a few years... Hope to see you in Raton! jj Edited June 12, 2008 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Thats a pretty good scoring system. Locally we have used that for years since the only club around here that puts on a 3gun match is our main IDPA club. We use IDPA tagets with IDPA scoring for stages and match, no stage points, time plus only but miss penalties are IMGA , the best of both worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 (edited) Here is a chart to help show the comparison between the 2 I believe this is correct Edited June 12, 2008 by TRUBL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 WOW the scoring I read about, here, makes my head hurt. I know you all truly, have the right though, to do our best in making matches run fairly and correctly. But Hey I do this for fun. Some of the ideas are a score keeper’s nightmare. You need CPA’s with video replay to keep up. It sounds very stressful. You would have to triple my pay to run that match. (Still $zero) I do run my share of matches. Much easier on all participants to write in to the stage. “All targets must be hit before moving to the next position.” That way you. A, make your hits. OR B, run out of ammo. Just my .02 cents. Jim M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHamp Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I do not think that 3-Gun scoring is broke, I also do not think that USPSA has it down. Obviously I do not think we had it nailed either hence the change. 3-Gun has been in a state of change since before the FB3G began, our goal was and is, to put on the premiere 3-gun match in the country in 5 years. This is year 4 and the rules are changed, not because we want the headache of changing the scoring system but because we truly believe this system brings a new aspect to the game. We are going to try this out this year, I hope you will bring an open mind and try them as well. If you think it sucks AFTER you participate, this is the place to post but I think it is pretty hard to form such strong opinions NEVER having tried it. For all the comments on the changes no one has noted that the shooter who is the fastest and most accurate will win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 BUMP.......so that they can stop talking about a scoring system in the Fort Benning Post and bring it in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskey1 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I shot the BRM3G and had a ball. I have also shot a number of other matches under varying rule sets. The idea of actually having to hit most of the targets to win is a good one. It takes much longer to hit a distant target than to just fling one in that direction. The scoring system should not reward someone who flings an offhand standing shot at a 400 yard plate and should reward someone who gets in a good position, steadies thier sights, and takes time to press the trigger correctly. Shooting the targets should always be the point- getting to the end of the stage fast is secondary. This scoring system attempts to reward people who hit the targets rapidly. I for one appreciate the attempt to reward marksmanship and speed. Innovation is often a good thing... I can't wait for the match. Hats off to the AMU and Ms. Chico for giving all of us (who were lucky enough to get in) the opportunity of shooting at Ft. Benning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I think R&R is going to this next month also. I don't know if its exact or a modified version but they want to do points down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 In the comparison I did, if you are an A-C type shooter and get your hits, the most you'll be down is a second per target. One bigger stages, it may not matter a whole lot if you are middle of the road shooter. The top guys, really gonna be have to be on their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Hamp, quit clouding the discussion with FACTS, please we were having such a good time till you came along Also if we are banned from dissing certain associations and the way they run and rule, I think maybe a moderator or 2 should keep mention of them out of such discussions. No associations rules are foolproof or perfect, having too few or too many does not make them better, just different. As Linda and others have stated the discussion period to submit changes is OVER, now we live with what we have and see what happens. I for one look forward to the match, and see if we can evolve and improve or learn and return to what was original. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sono Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I like the rules myself. This could take some of the gaming out and force me and others to work on weak areas. Great idea for the years top match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Well now, it sure looks like we're all gonna have to aim and squeeze and hit the long ones at this match, or suffer some severe consiquences. I'm assuming they are actually gonna be visible, sunlight or cloudy, for tactical scope as well as iron, all day long? And everyone knows that if some of the targets fade into the backround when the sun hits them a certain way, that the match wouldn't be fair to the competitors that paid a small fortune for the priviledge of attending? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I think the new rules suck! And 17 of you should drop out in protest (I'm 17 on the waiting list). Seriously, I plan to shoot my best whatever the rules may be, and have a great time at the best 3 gun match in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Thanks Linda! - for all that you do. RE scoring: I do not have a dog in the fight for one method vs. another. I DO urge everyone to pressure the powers that be to get together and work out ONE scoring method for the sake of us shooters. The current patch-work annoys me to no end. Thanks everyone. PS - heard several reports from shooters about the excellent quality of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyH Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Having shot this scoring system a couple of times, I think most everyone who has never shot it, will like it. As it has been stated in previous posts, it does take out the random 2 hits anywhere to score & brings back some accruracy into the scheme of things. You will have to be prepared & know your zeros at different yardages & be gentle on the trigger. The more points for more guns used is a great idea also, so give it a chance & I hope this scoring method catches on to all of the matches. Just my 2 pennys. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 Since Benning is the only one using this scoring system, I guess the only place to address scoring questions would be here? In Heavy Metal, I shoot a paper target, and if more than 15 yards away I can't see the hit, so I add another hit, but noticed I pulled it a little, and hit it the 3rd time. When scoring, I've got an "A" hit, a "C" hit, and a "D" hit. Is it the best 2 shots, like USPSA? Does the "A" hit nutralize the target and the extra hits don't matter since the target is nutralized? Is it +.5 for the "C" hit? Is it +2.0 for the "C" and "D" hits? Who's responsible for getting the time into the scoring - RO's, or are the hits written like USPSA and scored in stats? Just to get a handle on HM scoring, what would this very possible scoring question call for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 The scoring has been used before, it works. Go here: http://lchico.5u.com/AMU/3GRules.pdf Read section 9. The RO writes down your total time for the stage. Then he rights down your penalties. Stats does the calculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 Since Benning is the only one using this scoring system, I guess the only place to address scoring questions would be here?In Heavy Metal, I shoot a paper target, and if more than 15 yards away I can't see the hit, so I add another hit, but noticed I pulled it a little, and hit it the 3rd time. When scoring, I've got an "A" hit, a "C" hit, and a "D" hit. Is it the best 2 shots, like USPSA? Does the "A" hit nutralize the target and the extra hits don't matter since the target is nutralized? Is it +.5 for the "C" hit? Is it +2.0 for the "C" and "D" hits? Who's responsible for getting the time into the scoring - RO's, or are the hits written like USPSA and scored in stats? Mike, the rules say that if you shoot more than one, then the best two count same as the other classes. Its pretty cool to be able to shoot only one when .308 is half a dollar a round,eh? Hope to see y'all at CTI. Mike Just to get a handle on HM scoring, what would this very possible scoring question call for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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