Billet 650 die head

[fastshooter03]

I have made a prototype billet aluminumXL650 diehead for taking up the sloppy tolerances used by Dillon on the 650. I don't know why they are so bad in today's machining world? The press I took "Make to" dimensions from had a difference of .010" in the die head to slot thickness!

I have checked the prototype on 3 presses and is seems dillion does not hold press tolerances very well at all. 1 is very tight and fits perfectly and the other two were barely loose and a little more loose but still fit wwwaaayyyy better than the cast garbage.

But the biggest problems that I'm trying to solve is with the die hole circle dimension compared to the shell plate circle. On the one shell plate and die head I measured, the die locations were actually smaller by .004" total (if the holes were centered on the threads). We all know it can be a pain when the shellplate gets filled with powder and debris and the cases are not going all the way into the shellplate cuts causing a misalignment on the 1st location(sizing die). Sometimes it looks like case are tilted when the enter the die. I can't help but worry about what is happening to the case when this happens. Unneccessary stresses or worse? With a slightly larger outward spacing of the die locations it may alleviate some of the misalignment when dirty problems are encountered. There is a little space for the case to move outward on the shellplate and not get stuck on the brass keeper things.

The only problem I see is that making them for other people would require said person to measure their press/presses for a custom fit which would lead to higher prices.

Of course if Dillion would see this as an issue they could build the modification into their die head machining process. I'm surprised with such a good press design they never thought it would get dirty enough to matter. Must be why they have such big radii on their dies.

I think it does. How bout everyone else? Am I the only one who has a problem with this?

Nick

[Chris Keen]

YES

[cnjaxx]

I have made a prototype billet aluminumXL650 diehead for taking up the sloppy tolerances used by Dillon on the 650. I don't know why they are so bad in today's machining world? The press I took "Make to" dimensions from had a difference of .010" in the die head to slot thickness!

I have checked the prototype on 3 presses and is seems dillion does not hold press tolerances very well at all. 1 is very tight and fits perfectly and the other two were barely loose and a little more loose but still fit wwwaaayyyy better than the cast garbage.

But the biggest problems that I'm trying to solve is with the die hole circle dimension compared to the shell plate circle. On the one shell plate and die head I measured, the die locations were actually smaller by .004" total (if the holes were centered on the threads). We all know it can be a pain when the shellplate gets filled with powder and debris and the cases are not going all the way into the shellplate cuts causing a misalignment on the 1st location(sizing die). Sometimes it looks like case are tilted when the enter the die. I can't help but worry about what is happening to the case when this happens. Unneccessary stresses or worse? With a slightly larger outward spacing of the die locations it may alleviate some of the misalignment when dirty problems are encountered. There is a little space for the case to move outward on the shellplate and not get stuck on the brass keeper things.

The only problem I see is that making them for other people would require said person to measure their press/presses for a custom fit which would lead to higher prices.

Of course if Dillion would see this as an issue they could build the modification into their die head machining process. I'm surprised with such a good press design they never thought it would get dirty enough to matter. Must be why they have such big radii on their dies.

I think it does. How bout everyone else? Am I the only one who has a problem with this?

Nick

This is a joke right?

[fastshooter03]

I guess most people deal in fractions.

Sorry I wasted your time.

Nick

[Merlin Orr]

I guess most people deal in fractions.

Sorry I wasted your time.

Nick

Nick .. I'll bet you answer truthfully when your woman asks if these pants make her butt look big....?

We all love our Dillons.. Advise that I myself certainly don't heed...? Try being a little more diplomatic....

[fastshooter03]

I get a little excited when I have an idea or make something that actually works like I want and quickly post it on this forum without thinking. I keep forgetting that I need to just keep it to myself and settle down. It's a problem you guys shouldn't have to deal with.

But everyone knows diplomacy did't work in Iraq

Nick

[Chris Keen]

I think it is a little bit like a Glock .... lower tolerances make it run more reliably. Accuracy is not AS important in USPSA as it is in High Power rifle.

[ChuckS]

Nick,

I am an engineer by trade, and as such, I can overcomplicate things with the best of them. That said, I am not sure why you would want to take valuable time away from matches, range practice, dry fire, reading, family, friends, reading about shooting and surfing the forum to do something like this! What problem are you working other than you don't like the fit?

Tell you what, load some ammo on the unmodified press and some on the modified press. Take that ammo to the range and shoot it from the same gun using a Ransom rest*. Record the group size for maybe 10 groups of 10 rounds for each lot and compare the average group sizes. Let us know what you have found!

A lot of people have described various mods for Dillon presses but I have yet to see a "my ammo group size decreased by x% with the my Dillon Better-izer".

No disrespect intended. Just wondering why...

Later,

Chuck

* Edit: sorry I assumed pistol ammo. Insert Ransom rest or rifle equivalent!

Edited March 15, 2008 by ChuckS

[Larry White]

Nick, some things just need a little slop in there to work. And sometimes good enough is, well, good enough.---------Larry

[AlamoShooter]

I read one time that Henry Ford said... "Successful business are founded on - Close Enough-" That used to bother me. But most ever-thing we buy we go for "Close Enough" starting the day with a shower to Breakfast. Just have something that is "close enough' to meeting= nourishment, Cost ,time allowed.

We all buy our car on Close Enough, Some pour fools settle for a wife that is Close Enough.

Most of us do not want Dillon to call for tolerances that close = because it would end up making all the presses cost more.

I admit I used to worry about the same thing with a 650 and the 550 press. But if you follow the directions that say to finish all the die adjustments with the shell plate loaded with a shell at each station = it does just fine.

After loading thousands rifle rounds that shot sub MOA at over yards I stopped being concerned about it

Be happy

Edited March 15, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[DrawandDuck]

Nick are you loading for 9mm, just curious? I am loading )and will continue with) 38 super comp and do not have the powder spillage issue but I have some buddies that load the 9 and it is a issues with them, spilling powder all over that is...

Randal

[gm iprod]

I have found the same lack of tolerances in both my 650 and my 550.

The strange thing is that from the 650 the 38Super ammo will group .55" at 50yards and from the 550 my Ar shoots 55gr Sierra JHP into nothing less than .24". This is appaling???

The thing is, they work, they work way more often than they don't. The ammo made on both these presses is as good as I can shoot the appropriate firearms.

My benchrest and F class rifles are generally loaded on single stage presses using dies that in total cost more than the RL550 complete. They shoot a lot better than 1/4" at 100y but again the main problem is not the reloader or the rifle. It's the thing that is directly behind the recoil pad.

A freind of mine (he has all the toys and tools at his disposal) said given a big enough block of aluminium he could rebuild the 550 or 650 frame and toolhead and make the tolerances disappear, he also said that unless I discover diamonds or oil in my yard, I can't afford for him to do the job. He checked out five different Dillon RL550 and transfered the toolheads between all the machines and found that the ammunition had no discernable (or real world) difference when loaded on a different machine from that which it was originally set up on. This is the point.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[fastshooter03]

I have no problems loading rifle ammo on the standard dieheads since I don't size with the dillon and shimming upward is easy if neccessary. I also use competition seating dies that hold the case.

I forgot to add what happens to me occasionally when I load pistol ammo. It will stop on the upward stroke because the case won't start into the sizing die. I have to look(but I already know what happened) and then push the case inward to continue. I case appears that it is not aligned with the center of the die even though it is all the way into the shellholder. I'm sure it's a combination of things that are causing the case not to be far enough on the shell holder to be centered in the die but moving the die outward slightly would alleviate it.

The up-down sloppiness isn't that much of a factor compared to the die alignment problem. That's why I said if dillon would move the die locations or just/especially the sizing die location outward in relation to the shellholder, I would be happy and not worry about it as my problem would go away.

There is room at all the press locations for the case to be moved outward on the shell holder just a small amount to compensate for the shellholder getting dirty. It is a simple solution.

Most Firearms are built with tolerances that allow for dirtiness. The dillon diehead and shellholder are designed with the same number in regards to the case and die centerlines with the case being pushed all the way into the shellholder from my measurements. I know the case can rock and still make it into the dies but why not design it so the case has a little room before its stopped by the shellholder?

Production tolerances can be pretty high. Maybe someone can check with dillon to see if their supplier machines the shellplates and die heads to the same centerline and ask what their tolerances are? I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you.

I just go by what I measure on the parts and what happens when I load. And I wasn't impressed.

I have recently talked to some of the local guys with 650s and they experience the same problem as I have every now and then.

If sloppyness is good why not have it for this particular dimension?

When did I say I have ammo accuracy problems with the dillon die heads??? I've read my posts and can't find it. How come everbody jumps to their own conclusions?

I have powder spilling issues no matter what I load. Normally it is a small amount that is either coming out the case or just a few grains getting stuck in the drop sleeve and falling out. I do load for 9 major now and while the powder does come up pretty high it's not that bad since I use 6.5-6.7 grains of N330. Reloading is a dirty process.

Nick

[slavex]

when you figure that these presses are going to be used in all manner of conditions, by all manner of people, you have to build them to the lowest common denominator IMO, so that they will work all the time. I don't see how these tolerances are that big of a deal. The machines work, produce quality ammo, and run forever. You start trying to tighten things up, you're gonna suffer somewhere.

[EricW]

Nick,

I feel your pain. I've posted more than a few of my brainchilds only to have them slapped down hard. It doesn't feel good, and it's pretty discouraging.

I think you should pursue your toolhead. I don't see anything out of line here. Run some ammo through the die cast head, then through your billet head, then measure the runout between the two. I think it's worth the experiment. Furthermore, even though people here may poo poo the idea, I'll bet the benchrest, sniper, and highpower crowd will take your efforts and results seriously.

Keep at it, amigo! There's always room and willing customers for a better mousetrap.

E

Edited March 16, 2008 by EricW

[kimel]

The cheapest, easiest way to take care of the slop problem is to install the UniqueTek helicoil kit. I did that to my 550B and love it. Yes, it takes 30 seconds longer to change tool heads but so what?

I believe the same kit will work on the 650 but as of yet no one has given me one of those for Christmas (despite repeated hints) so check before you buy.

[EricW]

I was going to suggest that, but that doesn't fix the holes not being on centerline and out of axis. There really is merit in the endeavor. The question is: "what will be the benefit? And will the cost/benefit be practical?" The stock Dillon head is what, $13 last time I checked? Pretty darned cheap for what it does.

I'll bet if Nick could get his hands on a pile of unfinished castings, he could do very well with them. Might be worth calling Dillon and asking.

[Dan Sierpina]

I was going to suggest that, but that doesn't fix the holes not being on centerline and out of axis. There really is merit in the endeavor. The question is: "what will be the benefit? And will the cost/benefit be practical?" The stock Dillon head is what, $13 last time I checked? Pretty darned cheap for what it does.

I'll bet if Nick could get his hands on a pile of unfinished castings, he could do very well with them. Might be worth calling Dillon and asking.

Then you may as well make tool heads and shell plates in matched sets only.

Cases not going smoothly into the sizing die have far more to do with brass than the toolhead and shell plate. Use and EGW U-die? There is less radius on the case mouth. The case head isn't square, because the barrel is unlocking before the pressure is fully gone,( most pistols and rifles still have a large amount of pressure still in the barrel before unlocking)

As was mentioned, tolerances are not only there to make all the production parts fit, but, to keep costs to a reasonable level.

[Jaxshooter]

There is a company that makes a kit to thread the pin holes in the Dillon press to lock the toolhead in place. I think that is a little less expensive than machining a tool head from scratch. UniqueTech, Inc is the company.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Jaxshooter

[Chills1994]

Sorry to continue poo poo'ing your idea but I think for a lot of us competitive shooters, we got into reloading to save money and/or tailor build our loads to the guns or the divisions we're shooting in.

Basically, we're a cheap a$$ group.

So selling a toolhead for a Dillon 650 that is going to cost more than the Dillon made 650 toolhead ( $13 ??), just ain't gonna fly.

Sorry.

I'm sure there are a few of us out here in BE land that have neat ideas, possibly patentable, that somebody could PM you with...

"Gee, I wish somebody really made a ______ that had a ______ . That would be sweet!"

FWIW, I commend you on your enterpenueral spirit.

[fastshooter03]

Yes, I've seen the uniquetek Helicoil kits and I hope they are doing well with it. But the diehead moving up and down isn't going to cause a stoppage that I know of. We thought of the helicoil and a couple other ideas a while ago but decided to do the whole new head idea due to the stoppage issues that would not be fixed by keeping the diehead tight on the press. You can also put a thrust bearing on the 650 if you want to run the shellpate tighter. I was even thinking of making a couple of 650 type presses for myself with a different die head/top end design. Still might. Like some others on the tips and tricks thread I made a very simple/cost effective spent primer adapter to run a hose instead of a catch can. Only my local friends MIGHT get their hands on one.

It wouldn't cost dillon a dime to change the numbers on their blueprint to allow the case to have a little more in-out room to move in the shellplate in relation to the dies. It's called a REVISION. Happens all the time in the machining world when the company behind the blueprint finds a need to improve upon their design.

There must have been a problem with the design of the ejector rod? Why did they change that? Why wasn't it GOOD ENOUGH?? It was/is a hinderance for everything we load because it causes intermittent stoppages that just plain pissed people off enough to call dillon and complain. I'm might call to get some new ejector rods but I don't think they'll listen to me on the die head Idea. Not like dillon is going to give me an award if I actually have a good idea that helps everybody. It seems nobody other than me has a stoppage trying to size pistol brass on a 650 anyways.

I know my intermittent case sizing stoppage problem is just a minor hinderance compared to the ejector rod but why have a hinderance at all when their is a NO COST solution. I bet it cost dillon more to add a bend to the ejector rod than it would to change the die head numbers. There is nothing bad that can happen when you allow the case to have a little more room on the shellplate to align with die above it.

I've heard some comments on other threads that guys love the competition pistol seating dies because it helps get rid of the bullet bulge on one side of the loaded cartridge. I've experienced that myself. Most of the time "THE BULGE" didn't affect function but some times(maybe a couple/hundred) they wouldn't fit into the case gauge so we upgraded. I also use new brass for big matches and combined with the comp seater I don't case gauge anymore. Maybe it's not the standard die's problem of design but it's location in relation to the case? Do the unfortunate people who load on single stage presses for pistol have "THE BULGE"? I have no idea? Maybe somebody has an old seating die they can do a test with?

My AR ammo untuned to the rifle will do .5s @ 100 W/5x scope on the 650. I don't accuracy test with pistol ammo. We just load to PF and function for the pistols. And no I don't practice. That's what local monthly matches are for.

Thanks for everybodies' comments

Nick

[slavex]

so you're saying the "slop" between the die holes and the shell holder are causing your problems? For that to happen there would have to be monumental differences in centerlines. If that's the case I'd check a few other presses and see if it's unique to you, or really is a problem across the line. And you are right, in this day and age of modern machining it would take very very little for someone to address a possible issue and change a few numbers here and there. I've watched my friend do it during production at the CNC shop he runs. steps up to the machine, enters the program, changes the lines of code he needs to, saves it, and restarts.pretty simple

[Chills1994]

fastshooter03 wrote:

I don't accuracy test with pistol ammo. We just load to PF and function for the pistols. And no I don't practice. That's what local monthly matches are for.

My long lost brother.... where have you been all these years?? LOL!

I run an EGW/Lee Undersize Die on my 550, and I run into the same problem time to time with the case not wanting to go up in the die.

I just tweak the paper clip to hold the case just right.

I also finally, like just a month ago after having this 550 for at least 4 years now, that there is a set screw in the ram/shaft so that the shellplate bolt doesn't spin.

Yeah... about time....

I'm thinking that alot could be done to the toolheads with just the right size drill bit, a tap, and then corresponding size set screws, and then call her good!

[dillon]

fastshooter03,

The reason we want the case slide completely into the shellplate is that the rim of a case is not overly strong. With the case completely

in the shellplate the shellplate is contacting at least 180 degrees of the rim, enough surface area to spread out the force of extraction over.

If the case is not fully in the shellplate, the actual contact surface is very small, less than the extractor of a firearm. The result is that the rim can

deform, and sometimes rip out, allowing the case to exit through the top of the shellplate and remain in the size die.

Most often the misalignment between a die and the case can be mitigasted by loosening the die lock ring, running the case up into the die, and then tightening the lock ring with the case up in the die. The tolerances between male and female threads on 7/8-14 dies are significant. Tightening the lock

ring with a case up in the die centers the die in the threads while the die is locked into position.

I am unsure of what you are calling an "ejector rod". If you could provide me a part number I could shed more light on the item.

[mobocracy]

I have no problems loading rifle ammo on the standard dieheads since I don't size with the dillon and shimming upward is easy if neccessary. I also use competition seating dies that hold the case.

I forgot to add what happens to me occasionally when I load pistol ammo. It will stop on the upward stroke because the case won't start into the sizing die. I have to look(but I already know what happened) and then push the case inward to continue. I case appears that it is not aligned with the center of the die even though it is all the way into the shellholder. I'm sure it's a combination of things that are causing the case not to be far enough on the shell holder to be centered in the die but moving the die outward slightly would alleviate it.

First off, I fully support your customization effort, even if its not a problem I'm having. I had a custom powder funnel made for loading an "unsupported" caliber (.50AE) on my 650.

Secondly, I think your problem may not necessarily be due to the misalignment of the shellplate and die mouths. I've had this problem before and unrelated, I had my case insert slide & cam break. Dillon sent the entire assembly, including the slide spring and I noticed the original spring (in a year old press) was totally compressed relative to a new one. Once I replaced the assembly with the new spring, it happened a lot less. It still happens from time to time on some calibers, the least with Dillon size dies that have radiused mouths.

Keep up the good work, it'll be interesting to see how well your custom part works.