Billet 650 die head

[fastshooter03]

I guess you call it an ejector wire. I don't have the part number. Couldn't find in on the dillon website.

Thank you Mobocracy for having the same/similar problem. We too have had the case insert parts break and be replaced. We also added a piece of neoprene on the case inserter face to help push the case all the way into the shellplate.

It looks like I will have to do some serious inspection and testing to see how far I can move the die to align it with the case and more of an average number for the shellplate and die head radius and how they relate to each other plus the difference in rim vs groove on the cases. My initial findings had the die head at 1.180" and the shellplate at 1.185". I know it's only .005" but combine that with some crap in the way and it'll get bigger.

I know that you would want a majority of the case rim in the shellplate but I'm not saying to move the die location out a whole bunch, just a little. The only time I was afraid of ripping the rim off the case was with 223 so that's one reason I use a single stage press for sizing rifle brass. Most everybody uses carbide for pistol stuff and I've never had a case so tight it felt like it would rip the rim off. I'm sure other people have but not me.

I'll report later on further findings.

Nick

[mobocracy]

Thank you Mobocracy for having the same/similar problem. We too have had the case insert parts break and be replaced. We also added a piece of neoprene on the case inserter face to help push the case all the way into the shellplate.

For me, it's only really been a nuisance overall and typically only with size dies that aren't radiused. The worst is .32 ACP, but that caliber is so puny its annoying to load for many reasons. Even Redding won't make a custom radiused mouth die for it. Fortunately I only feel compelled to shoot my Seecamp about 250 rounds per year. The other culprit are .50AE, but much less so, and those are really large cases with unradiused mouth dies (steel are the only option due to the taper) and since its an unsupported caliber there's some question as to whether the shellplate is perfect, etc. But its far less of a problem than .32 ACP and

I've had that happen with most other calibers I load (.44 Spl/Mag, .41 Mag, 10mm, .45 ACP) but at a much lower rate, maybe 5 out of a 1000, enough to just consider it acceptable mechanical error. I'm not sure its ever been a problem with .223 rifle, but I use Dillon's carbide die and the tapered neck makes it kind of "self-centering".

[jmorris]

Have you measured the GSI tool head to see if it will meet the requirements you need?

[dillon]

fastshooter03,

Dillon hasn't made any design change to the ejector wire. How old is your machine? Is the platform steel or alloy?

[fastshooter03]

My/My Dad's 650 platforms as well as my friend's are alloy I believe. They are from the late 90s and I have used all 3 with very similar results. My Friends press is sloppier than ours' are and I think the biggest problem I had with his press was 40SW cases getting turned upside down and 9mm stuck inside 40 cases but that would be the casefeed's/monkeyboy problem. His press had fewer stoppages from misalignment or failures to eject than ours do but they still occured when I loaded 900 rds one afternoon for him. I think going too fast accentuates the ejection problem so I try to get into a medium pace to minimize it.

I remember reading a thread somewhere? in the Enos forum that somebody was having problems with the cases not coming out of the shellplate and someone responded by saying there had been a redesign and you could call and get a new one if you had the older design. I can't remember which topic it was though? . I don't think I read it wrong but anything is possible as I'm usually in a hurry. Sorry for any incorrect product redesign statements then. It just seemed feesible with all the problems we've had with that part. I think my Dad has broken at least 2 trying to make it work better.

Gsi International looks like the company that my Friend is waiting for to send a 650 bullet feeder he ordered at the '08 shot show. I didn't think it was worth it for the small volume he does every year(10k rds combined rifle/pistol). He wanted to spend money bad so he bought one for 223 with a conversion kit for 40SW. I didn't--even though my Dad and I shoot about double what he does. Acually, we have been waiting for it to arrive so I can inspect it. I didn't see just a toolhead listed without the bullet feeder but they obviously have the capability. I did not physically touch it during the Shot Show to see how tight it was in the press. At that time I wasn't considering making new dieheads otherwise I would've asked them about it.

I've always thought the 650 diehead cut and ram bore are done in the same setup for accuracy so I've never considered the ram shellplate could be out of misalignment to the diehead cut in any way. I don't know when I'll be able to indicate the presses as they are 1/2 hour away and I don't visit my Dad every weekend but I will get to it sometime soon. First I will set up my diehead to see what happens though. The prototype die location dimensions are cut to what I measured on the shellplate since I forgot to change it in the big rush to get it done I was in. I have since moved the holes outward .010" following the 72 degree angles on my current program. I'm not planning on cutting any chips before I see what happens with the prototype.

Nick

[fastshooter03]

OK, here are the results from today's fun--all measured on our TIGHTEST 650 PRESS:

GOOD-I measured 3 different shellplates for the radius and they were all the same. 1.187" Die Locations on the die head were all + or - .001" to the center 3/4" hole.

BAD-Die was able to move in diehead a total of .010" in all directions from it's center. Dillon's advice about loosening the die lock ring and then running a case up to help align it and then retighten WILL WORK but I was only able to get about .007" from the center so you could at best get to where it should be if the diehead itself is centered on the shellplate. The threads are at least twice as loose as the 7/8-14 threads I cut with a tap. Diehead was able to move in press horizontally in all directions a total of .010" with pins in. (.000 one side and.010 all the way to the other) vertical movement was not measured. Keep in mind this is our tightest press.

UGLY-I measured 5 different dieheads including a 3 pak I bought a few months ago(big mistake) and they ranged from 1.170-1.180".

I put in the prototype die head with a measured radius of 1.186" to see how it would load. After about 400 rounds of 40 I have a good feeling about making more dieheads with larger die radii dimensions. Watching the 40 brass going into the dillon sizing die you could see they were still tilting inward to align with the die. I was also running a thrust bearing on the shellplate and combined with the solid diehead it was a nice experience except for the ejector wire still not working the greatest. It is easy to get a thrust bearing as the shellplate shoulder bolt is .500". Would be nice if the bolt had a square shoulder though.

I would like to see an ejector wire that goes more outward before it angles to the hole it sits in so that the case is ejected more gradually. If there where more than one version of ejector wire for big and small diameter cases it wouldn't bother me a bit if I had to change it every now and then. But I don't run magnum size cases so I would never have to change it.

There were 3 stoppages total of brass not making it into the sizing die. 2 were very close to going but one was a case rim problem and wasn't even close.

In an unrelated problem the sizing die was not punching out primers completely on about a dozen cases. The die was all the way down touching the shellplate so I was unsure about why this was happening. Mostly pmc brass but included some r-p and cci. I didn't try lowering the die as I blamed it on the brass being junk.

I measured the case rim and extractor groove diameters and came up with groove depths of approx .020-.040" depending on caliber and brand. The shellplate cut was about .005" wider than the case groove.

I don't know what dillon's blueprint numbers and related tolerances are for the die locations on the diehead but I feel confident that dillon could move their die location numbers out a minimum of .005" from the shellplate number and still have plenty of grabbing force. Maybe a 1.190-1.195" tolerance range would do the trick.

It was also fun to watch the spent primers falling down the clear tubing and into the catch bottle. Sometimes I'm easily entertained.

Conclusion: Set your dies up the way dillon reccomends by loosening the lock ring and then running a case up into the die and then tightening and then hoping for the best.

I will be making some more dieheads for myself sometime in the future so I'll have a bunch of stock dieheads for sale. I may also make a 1/2" to 3/4" adapter pin to see how close the alignment is between the ram and the diehead cut. Normally you wouldn't be able to visually see .001" misalignment but I was seeing more than that which leads me to believe the diehead cut is off from the ram centerline.

Nick

[Flexmoney]

It seems nobody other than me has a stoppage trying to size pistol brass on a 650 anyways.

I do.

[fastshooter03]

I ran a batch of 10 billet dieheads at 1.194" spacing and it's great to watch the brass go into the sizing die without moving at all. Some of them came out a little thick and had to be filed down a little to fit our tight press. We eventually filed our tight press so that we can use both our 650s with the same dieheads. It is interesting that all of the dieheads fit into my friends 650 and only 4 fit into our looser 650 and none fit into our tight press. Future dieheads will be made to fit everything and probably have a little up-down slop.

I also made a new ejector wire that has much less an angle so now I can move the press as fast as I want without the thing jamming up. All you need is some .080" bendable wire stock(5/64" will do) if you want to make your own ejector wire. It basically goes outward from the center farther than the stock piece before it bends toward the hole it sits in.

Nick

Edited April 14, 2008 by shred
some text deleted

[fastshooter03]

It would be a big help to me if I knew what sizes are out there for the diehead slot height on the 650 press. If you guys get some free time can you measure the slot height of your press with your calipers and either pm or post? It should be around .37_". On my next batch I would like to make dieheads that are the thickest possible to fit a majority of presses so I don't have to tell my friends to try it and see.

Nick

Edited April 17, 2008 by fastshooter03

[DarkSmileyX]

.371

[Flexmoney]

I went to measure, but couldn't find my calipers. I remember seeing them someplace odd the other day...

[fastshooter03]

Wow, .371" is really small. The factory dieheads run somewhere around .368".

Thanks,

Nick

[fastshooter03]

I was asked to give loading experience results so today I loaded 500 rds of 40.

Press has: one of my new diehead prototypes, my Dad's new ejector wire design, thrust bearing and washer under the shoulder bolt head, and graphite under the shellplate. It also has a sprent primer hose conversion but that doesn't affect loading.

I only had about 7 stoppages due to the dillon sizer die not knocking out the primer completely. The die is screwed all the way down so I'm not sure what the problem is. I think it is mostly crappy brass. We are using a mixture of junk off the range that my Dad swages before we load them.

The last 50 rounds the powder drop was getting stuck forward and then stamming back. The problem was the charge bar was binding catching on something internally due to the spring tension bending it upward. Our powder drops are old. I took the spring off and it worked fine.

I had no stoppages due to the case not going into the sizing die or loaded rounds getting caught on the ejector wire. It would have been very boring if not for the primer knock out and powder bar problems.

I didn't spend the time setting up the proper measuring tool but my loaded rounds were coming out 1.175-1.180" with the majority in the 1.176-7" range just measuring from the base to the tip. MG 180 RN Flat tip bullets.

I am very pleased that my time has not been wasted on these projects. Less fustration is almost always a good thing.

Nick

[Tom S.]

Mine is .380 to .381 depending on where I measure.

[DarkSmileyX]

Wow, .371" is really small. The factory dieheads run somewhere around .368".

Thanks,

Nick

I measured again to be sure and am geting .371 - .372

[fastshooter03]

Wow, both ends of the spectrum. .371-.381" . I may have to run certain size ranges so people can have the best fit possible without fitting required.

The factory dieheads must fit pretty good on that .371" press.

Thanks for the measurements!

Nick

[John Dunn]

Your primer problem may be primer drawback, where the spent primer is pushed out, sticks to the decapping pin, then gets drawn back into the primer hole. Try a gentle radius/polish to the decapping pin and see if that helps. There is a thread about it here somewhere as well.

[fastshooter03]

Your primer problem may be primer drawback, where the spent primer is pushed out, sticks to the decapping pin, then gets drawn back into the primer hole. Try a gentle radius/polish to the decapping pin and see if that helps. There is a thread about it here somewhere as well.

Thanks, I'll try it.

Nick

[Squishy]

I have been having problems with my 650 for about a year now. Several calls to dillon no help. Finally Gary at dillon walked me thru about an hours worth of adjustments over the phone . Could not fix, he told me to send it to them . I sent it back to dillon. They installed almost 300 dollars worth of parts. It was better . Talked to Nick (fastshooter03) about my problems. He gave me one of his improved protype tool head . Sat down last night to load ammo . Loaded a little over a 1000 rounds. No stopages None. Every round case gauged. This has never happened before. The press has never run this smooth. I ordered 3 more tool heads. Thanks Nick. I now like reloading again.

Darryl Dougherty