How much practice do most GMs do?

[badchad]

Both now that they are good and when acquiring most of their skills?

[38superman]

I suggest that you go to Matt Burkett's web site and look at the archives for his radio shows. They can be downloaded as podcasts.

Look for one with Max Michel as the guest.

I seem to remember Max on one of the shows discussing the number of rounds he shoots and the number of hours spent practicing.

Hope that helps.

Tony

Edited March 11, 2008 by 38superman

[AlamoShooter]

I can throw out a guess . =...... "Enough"

[Flexmoney]

That is covered pretty well in Lanny Bassham's With Winning In Mind. Brian, and forum dealer Steve Anderson, both carry the book.

[Neomet]

I'm pretty sure I read something that Angus posted saying he shoots about 80k rounds a year.

[konkapot]

PM sent with an actual answer to your question.

FY42385

[AWLAZS]

PM sent with an actual answer to your question.

FY42385

I want to see the answer too I just read all the way to the bottom.

How much time does GM with a day job and a family get to spend on his shooting skills.

[Matt Cheely]

PM sent with an actual answer to your question.

FY42385

I want to see the answer too I just read all the way to the bottom.

How much time does GM with a day job and a family get to spend on his shooting skills.

Harder to get there than stay there. I haven't shot a round in true practice in over 6 months.

I hate the winter

[Flexmoney]

PM sent with an actual answer to your question.

FY42385

FWIW...I didn't give an answer to the question, because I didn't know it. I suggested reading Bassham book, because he covers it, and explains it. I'd have to go look it up, then copy what he says to here (which wouldn't be right).

I can say that, when I was coming up, we had a Wednesday night practice session and matches on the weekends. I would supplement that with dry-fire...focusing on any particular area that I needed to improve. One night a week of live-fire probably wasn't ideal...especially at first, since others that showed up just wanted to shoot. I needed to work on particular skills, not "just have fun".

Anderson had a better approach as he came up. He dry-fired M-F, live-fire practice on T and TH, and matches on the weekend. And, he designed most of the stages at the home club's monthly match...so they incorporated a lot of what he was working on at the time.

He and I have different temperments with regards to this stuff. He would get out there and do it and figure it out. I would figure it out then get out there and do it.

Now that I "know stuff", I can get by with less practice. I just have to be really mentally focused about performing the fundamentals. But, that doesn't mean I am on my game at all. Quite the opposite. I can do OK despite not practiciing, because I have a solid understanding of the fundamentals. But, doing well is a whole 'nother story.

Bassham's book (and others) saved me hundreds and hundreds of $ in ammo, gas and time.

[konkapot]

No hard feelings Kyle; I felt he deserved a better answer than the typical forum answer of telling someone to "go buy....." and the other third hand responses he got.

Besides.......you are v-e-r-y qualified to answer the question....your second post was informative.

Peace

FY42385

[Jake Di Vita]

At the height of my dry fire obsession I was spending well over 40 hours a week doing shooting related things.

[Flexmoney]

No hard feelings Kyle; I felt he deserved a better answer than the typical forum answer of telling someone to "go buy....." and the other third hand responses he got.

Besides.......you are v-e-r-y qualified to answer the question....your second post was informative.

Peace

FY42385

Sometimes all I can get out is the readers digest version.

And, sometimes...it's good to show somebody where/how to learn on their own (give a fish/teach to fish).

Free advice is just that.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

(What else can I throw in this silly reply...lol)

[Flexmoney]

Really though...I'd say a qualified answer would be one that addresses the number of repetitions on a task that it takes to "learn" it...and to keep the saw sharp. I would have to look that up. (I've heard some statement made on that, but I'd like to know the true source on the info.)

[AWLAZS]

He didn't ask how much he had to practice he was asking how long you practiced. I don't think Lenny mentioned you in his book Flex.

It is interesting to hear what people do to train and how much time it takes them to do it.

Thanks guys

Edited March 13, 2008 by AWLAZS

[chuckbradley]

The answer is different for each person and each GM. Frank Garcia once told me that he had to practice to stay on his game since he did not have natural ability. I believe its all relative. One shooter who may not have as much natural ability may be able to practice and achieve the same level as a shooter of more natural ability who didnt practice. With all else equal I think every shooter will be better with some practice. I also believe there is a diminishing return the more you practice. Being that we all have different levels of ability you cant say it takes a specific amount of practice to make GM or a GM has to practice a set amount.

Also there is alot more to this game than just fundamental skills or even athletic ability, a big component is the mental game. To be able to perform at GM levels at matches one must be able to pull all the facets of the sport together. I know some shooters who are lightning fast with exceptional motor skills. But they havent learned to apply it to the sport and balance the different variables which is necessary to perform at the GM level in actual competition. I also know one shooter who is not a speed demon. He is smooth and consistent. What he lacks in speed he makes up in accuracy. I shot with him one year in Fredericksburg at the Limited Nationals. He was always a second or two behind the rest of us. He finished 8th that year I think. That was back before the nationals was watered down. We had 400 shooters all shooting limited. I am speaking of Doug Koenig.

Another part of the question could be what does it take to get a GM card or what does it take to be able to perform at GM levels at major matches. Lots of practice will help you get a GM card but you could be in for a rude awakening at a real match.

[AlamoShooter]

Most of the sports training guys = martial Arts to golf aggree that a normal person is not going to have memifull progress with less than three times a week training. Shooters are lucky we can dry fire at home and have that count.

I reached the top in one sport and I practice an average of 12+hrs a week for 1/3 of the year. = for several years. Not including matches.

[dirtypool40]

I'll chime in...

I'm no "super G" but I hope to play one on TV....

Like a bunch of guys have said I practiced more when the schedule and money allowed (down South) then made GM when things percolated through.

I have honestly not put in any meaningful dry fire in the three years since I came home. Yet today at the range I hit a .77 reload. A few weeks ago I hit a .81 demo-ing a VP cold. But I wouldn't bet I could do those in a match first time on demand. No, I am clearly NOT as gifted as some of the aliens like TT and TGO (who also probably practiced REALLY hard coming up) but I did put in a lot of time on loads trying to figure them out, and if you let me warm up the memory is there.

Now if I want them (draws, reloads, splits, transitions etc etc etc) to be quick and smooth 1st time every time (TT ) I better get my lazy ass back to dry fire and regular practice.

As it is I am trying to get "back in shape" shooting wise, hoping to shoot well at the upcoming matches after missing the season opener. I find it takes 6-8 weeks of at least two practices a week to get back up to speed, but once there I can hold it for a time, maybe 3 months, on 1 or 2 sessions a week. That's assuming an active competition schedule.

I spoke to Ted Puente right after he finished 2nd at the L10 "Robbie Show" last year, and he said some similar things; that you have to cycle up and down for big matches, peak a couple times a year, then relax. Well Ted clearly has it figured out, and well.... I'm still working on it.

Another thing; I didn't really go after the "GM card" like Steve Anderson did, as much as I went after learning to shoot better and letting the GM card be a by product of my improvement. (Ok, so as I got close I started to think about it ) I'm not knocking Steve, we just went at the problem from different ends. He went after speed shoots / classifiers with monster amounts of dry fire, and I worked movement, and things I might see in a field course, which make up roughly 80-90% of our local matches.

As a result, I won HOA at our locals a few times (VERY few), beating Open M's and once even an Open GM BEFORE I got the GM card.

I'm still kinda that way. When I run classes they're mostly detail, technical knowledge oriented instead of being "knee deep in brass" hoser courses. HOW to move, HOW to draw instead of doing 10,000 draws. I leave the repetition to you after you leave. Both approaches will eventually get you there, it's just the different paths of convergent developement.

It's a combination of gifts, practice, dedication, knowledge, drive..... lots of things. Practice and dry fire are part of it for sure.

Speaking of.... Freakin' 3 years?!?!?! I got to get on that!!!

[badchad]

That is covered pretty well in Lanny Bassham's With Winning In Mind. Brian, and forum dealer Steve Anderson, both carry the book.

Ok, I have that book and I just went though and reread my highlights. Bassham recommends shooting 4-5 days per week on page 82. On page 8 he says prior to developing his mental management system he trained 5 days per week 5 hours per day and makes the point that that he practiced too much:

“What I have learned is that I did not need to spend that much time and effort. You see. I did not have the Mental Management System then. If I had I could have done better on half the effort and half the time.”

However, rather than taking his own advice and enjoying some free time, on page 115 it says he was still training 5 hours per day 5 days per week prior to winning his gold medal in 76.

Not to knock Bassham but it’s hard to see how much his Mental Management System helped him as 4 more years of practice 20 hours per week should help a lot by itself and heck he was a silver medalist in 72 so he didn’t choke that bad.

So by suggesting this book I’m not sure if you’re recommending 20 hours per week of practice and that this is a good ballpark for IPSC shooters or if your recommending MMS.

Also Bassham says on page 145 “Find out what the best people in your sport or business are doing, and duplicate what they do.” I think that’s great advice and that’s basically what I’m asking here. I’ve read all the books recommended on this site and have watched all the videos so I think I know how to practice the various skills needed. But in these books and DVDs very few quantified how much time they put into developing their skills. Some have answered that GM’s practice enough, well sure, but how much was that? Some have answered various round counts per week or year, which help but is difficult to apply to yourself if a lot of your training time is based on a dry fire routine. Some have said if you’re talented you need less practice than if your not. I think that’s fairly self evident but I’m interested in knowing how much the time guys without natural talent needed to get real good and how much practice you still need even if you do have natural talent. Some have mentioned that they don’t need to practice anymore now that they have developed their skills, but how much time did they have to put in weekly to develop those skills in the first place? Some have answered that they aren’t sure how much time they spent, but a rough estimate would be nice. A few answered my question, thanks.

[el pres]

Thats a fair question that I would like to know the answer to also . I know that evreyone is different

but I get the feeling that some might not want to devulge that information. It could be part of their mental

game agaist other GM's ?? I practice alot more than you!!

All I know is I heard Miculek in an interview one time say something like," there are a couple of things

that are so simple in this game, once you figure those out its a piece of cake but I'm not going to tell

you what those things are. You go to range and put down a 100k like I did and find out for yourself".

Not that everyone here is not extreamly helpfull, I appreciate all the info I get but theres a game to everything..

Edited March 13, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[AlamoShooter]

Dear Mr BadChad

I am not a GM in USPSA and I don't know that I ever will be -- could be with any amount of practice. I could end up with 6 GM classifier if I kept at it but that would not make me a GM.

I have made it to the top in two shooting games though, and I now that I had to work harder than most any one else I know of.

I passed by several other people that practiced more than I did. I wooul like to think I practiced smarter.

My comment about "Enough" was very accurate. simple and direct The amount is different for each individual, you are the only one that knows the answer to your question. And that is true for most questions about how much is Enough

Decide what you want and -Why- you want it. decide what you are willing to give up to arrive at it.

Like spending 9 out of 10 vacations on shooting.

The amount of time I spend enjoying my success are much smaller than the time I spent achieving them. At least it can seam that way.

The few IPSC GMs that I know are truly talented skilled guys =BJ Norris, Dave Re, for example could move to top at most anything they try at. Like Golf or Car racing or playing a Piano

Jamie

[HoMiE]

That is covered pretty well in Lanny Bassham's With Winning In Mind. Brian, and forum dealer Steve Anderson, both carry the book.

Ok, I have that book and I just went though and reread my highlights. Bassham recommends shooting 4-5 days per week on page 82. On page 8 he says prior to developing his mental management system he trained 5 days per week 5 hours per day and makes the point that that he practiced too much:

“What I have learned is that I did not need to spend that much time and effort. You see. I did not have the Mental Management System then. If I had I could have done better on half the effort and half the time.”

1000 punches and 1000 kicks. Your subconscious can't tell the difference between doing it and thinking about it.

However, rather than taking his own advice and enjoying some free time, on page 115 it says he was still training 5 hours per day 5 days per week prior to winning his gold medal in 76.

Not to knock Bassham but it’s hard to see how much his Mental Management System helped him as 4 more years of practice 20 hours per week should help a lot by itself and heck he was a silver medalist in 72 so he didn’t choke that bad.

He didn't believe he could win at that point, he gave up, then he saw he lost by 1 point or something like that. Then he started to look at the "winners", then he got the gold in 76'.

So by suggesting this book I’m not sure if you’re recommending 20 hours per week of practice and that this is a good ballpark for IPSC shooters or if your recommending MMS.

Also Bassham says on page 145 “Find out what the best people in your sport or business are doing, and duplicate what they do.” I think that’s great advice and that’s basically what I’m asking here. I’ve read all the books recommended on this site and have watched all the videos so I think I know how to practice the various skills needed. But in these books and DVDs very few quantified how much time they put into developing their skills. Some have answered that GM’s practice enough, well sure, but how much was that? Some have answered various round counts per week or year, which help but is difficult to apply to yourself if a lot of your training time is based on a dry fire routine. Some have said if you’re talented you need less practice than if your not. I think that’s fairly self evident but I’m interested in knowing how much the time guys without natural talent needed to get real good and how much practice you still need even if you do have natural talent. Some have mentioned that they don’t need to practice anymore now that they have developed their skills, but how much time did they have to put in weekly to develop those skills in the first place? Some have answered that they aren’t sure how much time they spent, but a rough estimate would be nice. A few answered my question, thanks.

I think there are too many factors to put a number on how much you have to practice. What I do know is, those who decided what they want and set goals, make it happen.

[ktyler]

I am a GM with a full time non shooting job and a family. I also enjoy other hobbies so I don't deticate my whole life to shooting. This is what worked for me to help me get better and not cause me a divorce.

When it is the shooting season, I drying firing about 20-30 minutes a day.

100 deliberate trigger presses

100 reloads of some type

100 draws of some type

100-150 transistion

some type of combined skill drills

When Steve Anderson's book came out I picked it up and added some of his drills

The dryfire sessions were no longer that I could give 100 percent too. If my mind started to wander, I would take a break or hang it up for the day

When I was making a push to see how good I could get, I was doing live fire practice (not matches) about 1 day a week shooting about 300-400 rounds. I would keep this up for about 7 months then need a break . But the dry fire never stopped.

My live fire practice looked much like what Saul Kirch does. Steve Anderson's book is a good training tool but do not get worried about blazing speed in dry fire. I it more important to get an honest sight picture with a good trigger press.

Ktyler

[Tim James]

Frank Garcia once told me that he had to practice to stay on his game since he did not have natural ability.

This is funny. I don't know about shooting, but that definitely applies to me in motorsports. If I haven't been to an autocross lately, my cousin who drives a similar car can come with me and beat me in my own car! I have a good 5 years of autocross under my belt but when my random friends and I go karting they beat me. (Though in this case the other racing might hurt me, but you know what I mean.)

Once I get some "Cheating Bastard" practice (stolen from NSX Files ) I am competitive again.

[CDRODA396]

Last Saturday, TGO shot at a local match I shot at, and I almost didnt want to bother him because I'm sure he gets beseiged by questions everywhere he goes, but I couldnt pass on the opportunity.

He was very gracious, did not appear or seem put out by my inquiries at all, and offered this about practice.

Most people practice what they enjoy doing or are good at, like draws and A's at 10, or whatever...but you have to look at what it is that is killing you, or that you hate doing, and design your practice to improve that area of your shooting. Those that do, improve, those that dont keep getting good at what they like and never really advance....I thought it sorta related and good enough advice to include here.

[ong45]

Take the amount of practice you do now and double it.

If you don't make enough progress double it again, rinse and repeat.