How much practice do most GMs do?

[Ramas]

Guys sorry for my bad english but...

I took a learning courses from Eric Grauffel. Then I realized a few important things which can be useful in competition shooting: 1. Accuracy-you should be accurate to achieve something, only good hits counts, no mater if you are shooting production or open(major factor). 2. Speed- you can gain it by proper technique and exeqution. If you do everything correct with minimal movement, then you are fast. 3. Tactics- how you will shoot a stage and why you will shoot it that way, what you can gain shooting it that way. I thought it was the most important things back then.

But now I think there is one BIG thing- Mental. When I ask some questions about mental side of this game I have very "rounded" answers from "succesfull competitive" GM's. It seems that this part is the biggest secret of this game. Thanx to Flex, Jake, Brian and few others GM's who introduced it to me and everyone who are on this forum. I think here you can find the biggest improvement in this game for less money spend on your goals. I want that this thread should go more"mental" way than is it now and how much important dry fire about.

Can you say more about mental aspects of this game? What techniques you are using, how mutch time it takes for you to "practice"? And things like that.

If you want it simple and do not want to share all seacrets, say how mutch practice it takes to you in percentages: dry fire, live fire, mental practice, tactics, match analyzation and other important things

Thank you.

P.S. I don't think that everyone with proper practice, atitude and wilingness can not achieve GM status!

Edited March 19, 2008 by Ramas

[Jake Di Vita]

Here's and article I recently posted in the Mental Conditioning section of the forum that might answer some of your questions.

Tactics and analyzation are pretty much only improved in actual match settings. A good thing I did for awhile was break down each stage I shot for both 10 rounds and Open/Limited Divisions.

I have a checklist of things to look for made out somewhere...I'll look for it and post it once I find it.

[Ramas]

I bookmarked this site. I found very usefull info there. Thanx again. By the way, I read some time ago Matt Cheely's post about his gun griping. He wrote that after some match with bad gun grip he was thinking about his griping few days how it should be and when he had practice his grip was corrected. Isn't it amaizing?

Edited March 19, 2008 by Ramas

[Ron Ankeny]

....my natural talent was being a fat uncoordinated kid.

I was also a fat uncoordinated kid. Now I am a fat, half blind, arthritic, crippled up, 53 year old man. I also had a short career in law enforcement and I have a pretty good grip on LEO training.

Let's put this entire discussion into perspective. No one here is changing terminology. Terminology evolves over time (MT and MI are good examples). The youngsters didn't change the meaning to suit them, it evolved. Terminology also changes depending on the context. In an ISPC training program, dry fire includes a lot more than sight alignment and trigger pull. In fact, I don't even pull the trigger any more.

As for context, this is a competition forum not a pistol fighting forum. When one asks what USPSA GMs "do" as it relates to this "game", the replies are bound to be competition specific. That said, dry fire (everything we do without actually firing the gun) can go a long way toward building survival skills too. Like drawing from concealment, getting off the X, engaging a target while retreating uprange towards cover, and so forth.

Back on topic. The original question was about GMs and practice. Several GMs have addressed that issue and I believe they are qualified to do so. Had the original post asked how much us wannabe GMs practice, the answer would be "not enough". I am qualified to speak to that...

[Jake Di Vita]

I was also a fat uncoordinated kid. Now I am a fat, half blind, arthritic, crippled up, 53 year old man.

There's actually a lot to that sentence. How much of a Natural gift for shooting does Ron have? Doesn't sound like a whole lot, but he's also a 53 year old man who holds 5 M cards...and it's not like he got them back in his 20's. That speaks for training and persistence over talent more than any argument I could make.

[Ramas]

Well, TGO also is not a slimmest and youngest guy in the planet, but look what his results are... even now

Edited March 19, 2008 by Ramas

[Flyin40]

Mick

Heres the dryfire defintion I got the from those speedy youngsters

Dryfire-to pull the trigger and drop the hammer on an empty chamber while not disturbing the sight picture

So what good does that do for Uspsa shooters- teaches proper sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control

This is the kind of practice I think is for classifier type stuff. How many majors will you place high in if this is the

only thing you do. Probably not very many if any.

So as Uspsa shooters we don't change the definition at all, we actually multiply its difficulty 1000x's. We take this concept of

not disturbing the sight picture but we do it while moving, running, reloading, ducking, leaning etc etc. Attempting to have trigger

control while moving and shooting is a very difficult thing to do. So to us here on the forum your dryfire defintion is like baby steps,

its what we do the first yr or so.

You say you have to put ammo downrange to get good right. If you can't dryfire and keep the sights aligned on a drill then you can't do it with live

ammo. If you can't keep the sights aligned during dryfire and can during live fire thats nothing more than a mental block. You take a mag, make some dummy rounds and fill the mag so the gun weight is the same. Practice a drill and see if you can keep the sights

aligned. If you can't you continue to practice, if you can you go and test with live fire.

We welcome everybody who can contribute to this forum but your talking to some of the best shooters in the world and telling them they are wrong. I'm not sure how you do that. It works for them so its right. If it doesn't work for you then leave it at that. We don't need to hear the rest unless your trying to help someone, not prove them wrong. I'm not sure if you know this but some of our top guys in this sport including the Army shooting team are training the military and they are teaching them to dryfire. I don't think you get any more real world than that.

Welcome to the forum,

Flyin

[Ramas]

Flyin, you try to beat this horse again. I and others do not want this thread to be closed, because I think this thread can be very iformative to us striving to be GM guys (look at Ben's posts- they are the longest ones I saw in this forum )

I am very thankfull to Mick because he is top notch instructor and his observations is very important , but his guys are more on tactical side, we are competitive shooters, so aproach and a view on training is different I think

I would like to see responses from GM's like this:

My training is like this: I train 5 days per week, 30% dry fire, 30% live fire, 30% mental, 10% tactics. Of course each element should consist and cover as much info - why it is important, what I am looking for, what I want to achieve, what I can learn and things like that, as he could give it till secret side I would like to see it as much detailed as he can give it to us. Doesn't you interested in it, does you?

Edited March 19, 2008 by Ramas

[Mick]

.We welcome everybody who can contribute to this forum but your talking to some of the best shooters in the world and telling them they are wrong. I'm not sure how you do that. It works for them so its right. If it doesn't work for you then leave it at that. We don't need to hear the rest unless your trying to help someone, not prove them wrong. I'm not sure if you know this but some of our top guys in this sport including the Army shooting team are training the military and they are teaching them to dryfire. I don't think you get any more real world than that.

Welcome to the forum,

Flyin

Flyin,

I never said it doesn't work for me, it does. It doesn't work for everyone. Since you don't know me I'll just thank you for your attempt to educate me but those Army guys you allude to were shooting in matches with me before they were legal to drive.

You can say something does work for you but that is not automatic for everyone. Something you continue to miss is the physical differences in people. Just because a GM does drill XXX doesn't mean it will make you a GM. As I stated earlier I actually know people who have tired all the tricks, did the drills but can't reach the level because of their physical limitations.

The questions is asked what practice GMs do and this is asked by those who want to achieve that level.

You need to remember that because YOU can do something it doesn't mean it the next person will but they should feel free to attempt what they are willing to do to fulfill their desire.

I am fully aware of what the Army is currently teaching as I also train with soldiers going to Iraq. Dry fire is not a big part of their agenda and I don't know where you got your information.

You can run around and do your dryfire thing all you want but if you don't maintain control of a gun in live fire you are not

effective. This goes for our game or anything real world.

[Jake Di Vita]

but his guys are more on tactical side, we are competitive shooters

The only difference here are the actual tactics...unless you don't want the speed and accuracy of a competitive shooter.

[Ron Ankeny]

My training is like this: I train 5 days per week, 30% dry fire, 30% live fire, 30% mental, 10% tactics.

That kind of information is out there in various videos and training literature. But it would be nice to have it condensed right here. I wonder where the old thread went where Biran talked about him and TGO pretty much giving up on the practice and just traveling from match to match?

[kruger]

I was also a fat uncoordinated kid. Now I am a fat, half blind, arthritic, crippled up, 53 year old man.

There's actually a lot to that sentence. How much of a Natural gift for shooting does Ron have? Doesn't sound like a whole lot, but he's also a 53 year old man who holds 5 M cards...and it's not like he got them back in his 20's. That speaks for training and persistence over talent more than any argument I could make.

I was thinking about "Natural gift" and running.

Take the four minute mile. Prior to Bannister's run, many thought it was impossible, then in 1954 he breaks the barrier. Since then quite a few people have broken the four minute mile. Running, more than IPSC, requires certain physical characteristics. Does this mean that we, as a species, are experiencing a genetic drift towards faster runners? I don't think so. I think that training methodologies and mental expectations have changed since 1953.

BTW, while I was never fat when I was young, I was definitely uncoordinated. You know that kid who was always picked last for team sports...

that was me.

[Ramas]

But it would be nice to have it condensed right here

Finally !!! Well, we are looking

[Paladin]

whatever gives us the outcome we desire..

[Flyin40]

I'm not sure where you got that it was a big part of the training, I'll I said was that they teach it and that was straight from the instructors mouth.

I went back and reread the thread for the 3rd time and I keep coming to the same message. Based on you expierence and all the data you have collected is that dryfire doesn't teach you hardly anything and you don't learn as much as you think you do. You have said this several times in post.

You have some great insight and info you put out but if most read it like I did then based on your last post something is not getting communicated properly. From your last post you think dryfire works for some people but not others. I'm not sure what your saying about dryfire.

It may be just me but I keep getting that your telling us we are wrong. If your not really meaning to put that message out let us know.

So this is what I getting

From a tactical standpoint you need to shoot livefire as much as possible??

How about for competition?? This is what we are interested in, not the tactical side. There are some tactical/real world things that pertain to competition and vise versa.

Let me ask you this.... Is most of the data you have geared toward new shooters??? or those with very little experience?? By this I'm mean those actually understanding and learning how to shoot a gun regardless of how many rounds they have fired. I think there is a very big difference between the two.

You have alot to offer, lots of expierence so help some shooters out. This is the only reason I got involved in this thread, to try to learn something about this topic.

Your way is NOT the right way........Just as my way is NOT the right way..........just the same neither way is WRONG.

So what advice do you have for up and comers??

Flyin

[Ron Ankeny]

As I stated earlier I actually know people who have tired all the tricks, did the drills but can't reach the level because of their physical limitations.

That deserves a thread of its own. Maybe I should go start one?

[Shawn Knight]

Well, TGO also is not a slimmest and youngest guy in the planet, but look what his results are... even now

TGO was built in a lab from parts of lesser GM's!!

[fastshooter03]

Being a GM in Production class is like gettin a driver's license in Crapifornia...

Sorry Ben, just kiddin...or am I? Yeah, I am.

Might have been said already and off topic but....

If anyone is expecting/relying that by doing others techniques they will become a GM I think they probably won't get there. YOU can get all the advice and take all the training courses you want but YOU must step through the door and use what you have learned. Sorta like losing weight.

TAKE in all the info you can, TRY what sounds good, and DO what actually works for YOU. And DON'T forget your experiences. If something went good or bad and you might not be able to remember it, write it down until you can.

But that's NOT ALL it takes. If your mind/body is not capable of reaching the level of the GMs your sorta SOL getting a GM card if that's what you were really shooting for.

But YOU'll never know unless you try. And if you can't get there it's still about the journey and having fun right?

Most GMs take this sport very, very seriously. Serious training and serious mental conditioning. Like any other sport, shooters are athletes and at the high levels of this sport they are almost like superstars persons below them might look up to and want to be like. (Too bad the superstar cash isn't there )

Ever watch a GM shoot a stage and NOT be impressed/inspired? Oh wait...I have...but that's a different story. (Take your mistakes and misses whiners! )

As for the Majority of my experiences I know just being on the same squad as a GM inspires me to give it my all(which usually isn't good enough ). I don't expect to ever make it to GM because I just don't have the drive to get there. On my very best day I MIGHT have the skills but all that is worthless if I don't have the commitment to take advantage of those skills every single time. Unless you're willing to do whatever it takes for you to perform like a GM every single time don't expect to get there.

Oh no,here's the different story. Sorry can't resist. There has been less than a handful of occasions in my few years at the big matches that just made me to think "this GM guy is a sponsored shooter?!" I will not get into specifics but I admire the shooters at all levels that accept their mistakes and don't bitch to the RO's to try and fix it for them. And it also makes me when the top of the range officials gives up points to people just because of who they are. Every time I say "it must be a double", I get the "yeah right" stare and scoring continues. I've seen perfect doubles given on swinging targets with only one perfectly round hole.

IF you think it's great to get away with cheating you just make me ! Just to be clear gaming is not illegal/cheating right?

Everyone would love to be a GM but we all must know and accept our limitations. There is no set "right for all" training technique and most of the time our limitations are only in our minds and experiences.

I can't see criticizing any type of reasonable training but I'm not a GM.

I used to get mad if something went wrong and start blaming equipment or others and ...maybe I still do...but mostly I will just call myself an idiot for doing something so stupid and keep going.

Never give up the GAME!

Nick

FY29443 D class shooter with M card

Edited March 20, 2008 by fastshooter03

[Rik]

How much practice do most GMs do?, (measured in time per day or week?)

Topic of original post and one of the best threads (imo) on BE yet.

I want to say thank you to all the GM who have taken time to post. It may sound strange to some, but my only contact with shooters on this level is this forum. I find your comments and methods very, very intresting. It is obvious that there are many paths to improvement. It is also very enlightning to see that not all GM went the 80,000 rds/year route. No way I can do that. Jake and Ben got there by a different route, if I can't find a way to improve then it's all on me.

Thanks, Rik

[BillGarlandJr]

When I first read this topic I thought it would be good, but never in a million years did I think there would be so much input. I've been tracking this topic for the last three days and since so many others have shared their insights I figure I'll share mine as well....FWIW

I guess to first qualify myself....I am a pretty fair M shooter in Prod, Limited, and L10. That being said, as far as how much dryfire a person should do....set goals for yourself and put in the time necessary to achieve those goals. And when you do dryfire, do it for as long as you are able to give it 100% concentration. Somedays that might be 10 minutes, and on other days it might be hours. Once a goal has been achieved, set another. That is what has worked for me. Keep in mind that whether you dryfire for 10 minutes per day or for 2 hours a day, it is your desire and the consistency of your effort that will help you achieve your goals.

As for the debate of dryfire vs. livefire.....both are important. There are many skills I can work on and develop through dryfire (draws, reloads, movement, transitions...just to name a few) however, for me the only way to test the skills I have been working on is through livefire. I kind of look at the whole thing academically. The dryfire I do at home are my study sessions. Then when I want to see if I have been studying the correct things, or if there are other things I need more work on I give myself a quiz by going out and doing some livefire practice. The quizes are also beneficial for me because there is no replacement for actually shooting the pistol and actually calling shots and tracking the sights when firing the pistol. Finally, matches are the tests....if I have been studying as much as I should, and have been studying the correct things I can usually expect good results. So for me one is as important as the other. I don't think I would progress much in IPSC without some dryfire, but I also think livefire is important to show that what I am doing in dryfire is translating well into the actual act of shooting the pistol.

Where training law enforcement vs. IPSC shooters is concerned I think there are some things that should be considered. First, when you compare the average cop to the average IPSC shooter you are often looking at two different kinds of shooters. The average cop is someone who doesn't necessarily enjoy shooting, but does it because he needs to for his job. The average IPSC shooter is someone who enjoys shooting, and shoots because they want to. I think everyone reading about this topic would agree that dryfiring is an activity engaged in most often by shooters who enjoy shooting and have a desire to improve. Now, of the two kinds of shooters just mentioned, who do you think is most likely to do any dryfire. Probably not the average cop. So, as law enforcement firearms trainers that leaves us with livefire as our best option. In my experience (I'm also a cop, and a part-time firearms instructor at our state police academy btw) livefire allows us as instructors to most quickly identify and fix problems with an officer's shooting technique. We actually have some time dedicated to dryfire at our academy, but in most cases the recruit officers just go through the motions because they are eager to get to the livefire part of the training. They can't appreciate the benefit of dryfire because most of them are not shooters of the same vein as IPSC shooters are.

So, is dryfire an effective means of training and learning how to shoot? It absolutely can be, but the person doing it has to have the desire to improve, otherwise they may just go through the motions and not realize the potential benefit. But in the absence of that desire to really be a better shooter, livefire practice under the watchful eye of a good firearms instructor is the best bet....just my 2cents worth.

[spook]

You can run around and do your dryfire thing all you want but if you don't maintain control of a gun in live fire you are not effective.

Nobody is arguing with that.

But, that has nothing to do with dry fire.

That is like saying Astronaut training programs are useless because the real thing will be in outer space...

Controlling recoil is the ONLY thing you cannot practice in dry fire.

As I stated earlier I actually know people who have tired all the tricks, did the drills but can't reach the level because of their physical limitations.

That deserves a thread of its own. Maybe I should go start one?

Ron, please do

[Mick]

Y'all make really good points and the diversity expressed here is very valuable.

I think Shrek1974 hit some points really well. He answered allot of points and leaves little.

Consider those astronauts that prepare for weightlessness in space. The don their spacesuits in a water tanks to simulate as best as possible the medium they want to learn...why?

My other point is about the physical differences were share.

Ron is 53, I'm 52 and yet we love to shoot so much we will do whatever we can to keep those

dreams going. At this age life is busy and time to practice is not available so I want the best bang for my buck. Anyone of you guys are great shooters or you wouldn't be sharing here. You obviously know something and know what works for you as I do. The exchange is wonderful.

I'm fearful folks will think they can easily become a GM just because they do the drills Joe GM does.

I RO a few matches and hear various comments. Some say they bought Joe GM's video to help but were disappointed for various reasons etc....

Some of y'all are very talented and it comes back to genetics...I use Adam Popplewell as an example since I actually know him and shoot with him some.

He has the eyes of superman, the quickness of a Cheetah and the determination of a Rhino. Many of us just are not going to equal him no matter what. He's is also a Vet DR which means he is very intellegent....With his mental and physical skills, he's tough to catch!

We can only hope the ARMY adopts some (or all) of what Max and Travis teach them.

Max and Travis normally come to the DTR championship and they're are loved by all who attend

their classes. If I could just have 4 hours of IPSC 101 with our PD classes.......!

There is no doubt that this type of shooting is on the cutting edge of using a pistol.

I carry a short video of a DTR championship to classes without the intent to show it unless someone really wants to see what y'all can do with a gun. I know that was a big push for me. I had been a Patrol Officer for about 7 years when I attended a match with a stock Gov't model. WOW! I started shooting more and the next year got into instructor school. There was allot more to learn!

Ok, you can take our terms from yesteryear and evolve them into new meaning but my point is that

doing the trigger control thing has good intent but is limited. Doing the various drills unloaded helps but that is not where I was going. As Shrek1974 writes, whether or not it's a Police thing or not the live fire is our best option for gain.

As Flyin was writing, some of the best shooters in the world gather here and have a chance to express their ideas. Also think that some of the newest shooters in the world are here also and are asking the question: what do I do to be like them?

The answer is: All of the above!

My two cents for them is to shoot as many live rounds as is possible and do it correctly, with guidance if you can. When you get to that level where you know trigger control and your shots hit where you aim then you can move on to other things like Jake does where he pounds out that Universe Class El Prez without live fire and then moves to live fire. Practicing the fundamentals can be done without live fire to an extent but when you drive those rounds into the target at warp speed and see the results you feel the gain. I prefer steel targets for practice. Doing a Bill Drill on a 10" steel plate in 2 seconds is a thrill and you can see and hear your hits. You know you did something right...

Edited March 20, 2008 by Mick

[Flexmoney]

I believe there are lots of folks out there. They want to know what it takes to be a Grand Master. Genetics...great. Lot's of ammo and time to use it...great. Is it required? Hell no.

I know lots of Master and Grand Master shooters that aren't physically superior. I know lots of Master and Grand Master shooters that probably aren't in danger of being called rocket scientists (though most are intelligent in many aspects). Some get there through pure grit. Others have grit, but don't progress no matter how much they shoot.

There are mental processes that need to be understood, in my opinion. There are technical skills that can be learned and mastered. There are various paths to get there.

I don't believe that a shooter needs to have much in the way of physical ability to be able to learn to do well in this game. I don't believe that a shooter must have more than average intelligence to do well (as long as they can get out of there own way from time to time). Live fire...will keep you honest...will time you to the gun...and will build confidence like nothing else.

Anybody that wants it...can get it. It's often a matter of truly deciding.

[38SuperWes]

I believe there are lots of folks out there. They want to know what it takes to be a Grand Master. Genetics...great. Lot's of ammo and time to use it...great. Is it required? Hell no.

I know lots of Master and Grand Master shooters that aren't physically superior. I know lots of Master and Grand Master shooters that probably aren't in danger of being called rocket scientists (though most are intelligent in many aspects). Some get there through pure grit. Others have grit, but don't progress no matter how much they shoot.

There are mental processes that need to be understood, in my opinion. There are technical skills that can be learned and mastered. There are various paths to get there.

I don't believe that a shooter needs to have much in the way of physical ability to be able to learn to do well in this game. I don't believe that a shooter must have more than average intelligence to do well (as long as they can get out of there own way from time to time). Live fire...will keep you honest...will time you to the gun...and will build confidence like nothing else.

Anybody that wants it...can get it. It's often a matter of truly deciding.

Well said....this is a great thread....keep it coming.

Wes

[badchad]

Thanks for the answers thus far. I think were getting somewhere and I’m learning.

Now let me try asking the question in a different way. In my former sport of Olympic weightlifting there was a degree of variation in what everyone did but there was a general consensus that the law of diminishing returns kicked in pretty fast after 90 minutes per session and at over 2 hours of training per day 5-6 days per week you were at risk of overtraining.

In this sport things are lot more mental and fine motor as opposed weightlifting so I’m not sure how relevant my example is, but I’m wondering what GMs would consider too much training? At what point are you really getting into diminishing returns and at what point are you overtraining?

And please before anyone chimes in to say that “no two people are alike,” etc. etc., please understand that I know that already and I assume most others interested in this topic do too.