How much practice do most GMs do?

[Jake Di Vita]

O lifting compared towards shooting is like comparing running a 1:50 - 800 to driving a car. The most you can practice is gonna be the most that your body and mind can handle physically and mentally.

I think a good rule of thumb is to practice as long as you can keep your attention focused on what you're doing and to stop before you're physically or mentally exhausted.

That makes another good point. In live fire there is only so much more you can do until you are physically too exhausted to continue. I would have serious issues with shooting 2000 rounds of live fire in a day. However I can do that in dry fire no problem. Dry fire in not an impact activity, so naturally you're going to be able to go longer than live fire.

[Mick]

Exactly!

In live fire on a range with creature comforts ie bathroom and drinks etc I can get to 1000 rounds in a few hours but that's it. I'm good for a couple days. That takes some stamina and doesn't happen quickly. Allot of folks stop at 250-300 as they have reached a diminishing return. Plan your drills accordingly.

When I shot Skeet years ago it was initially hard to shoot 4 rounds (100 shots) of skeet with a 12 gauge in the beginning. That is allot of work.

I don't dry fire but as said, why couldn't it go on as long as you have the desire to practice????

[hugh]

Does anybody need straightening out? Different perspectives are appreciated.

Michael Corleone:"You...straightened out my brother?"

Once again,the BE forums sets the standard for civil discourse and constructive moderation.

Kudos to Flexmoney,the Don of moderators

Hugh

[Ben Stoeger]

At what point are you really getting into diminishing returns and at what point are you overtraining?

I think training to the point of boredom or fatigue is not productive.

Some days on the range I can shoot up 800 rounds and still be hungry for more, other days I am just not "feelin it" after 75. You really need to go with the flow and not try to force it to hard.

[davecutts]

I think I shot 25,000 rounds last year. Mostly I do one live fire per week @ 300 - 400 rounds. Dry fire at the height I was hitting 30-60 minutes a day most days. Before open nationals I shot 200-300 rounds four or five days a week for three weeks, and up to a thousand rounds for each of three Monday's (my day off) before the match. I keep a pistol on my desk at home and do lots of pick ups, loads and transitions when I'm at the computer or watching a movie.

I am also living proof that anyone with the drive and work ethic can get their GM card. I started as a D class L10 shooter, and have worked towards getting better pretty hard for six years. The closest I got to athletics in high school was one year on the swim team, and playing Dungeons and Dragons, I'm also probably 80 Lbs over weight. Of course after I quit trying to get the card it showed up in the mail, I was actually stunned. Now it's here I have to figure out how to shoot like it's in my pocket.

[Jake Di Vita]

All you need to do is forget that it's in your pocket.

[j1b]

I didn't have a lot of faith in this thread after the first few days. I was honestly a little scared. Alas, it's come around and restored a little faith. I can't tell you the number of posts typed and deleted on my computer . . .

Over training is difficult, but from what I've seen in the sport few do it. Jake and Ben being the exception ya freakin' animals!!!!

I don't know what you do for a living, but have you ever had one of those jobs that if you did it from home you could do it in 20 hours a week with one hand tied behind your back but in the office amid all the distractions etc. it takes you 60 hours a week? That simulates what practice can be.

I don't shoot much anymore. I actively shoot, but I rarely practice with live fire. And to be honest, I dry fire a few days before I know I'm going to a match. That's about it. So for me, over practicing is not a concern. I will tell you though that when I strap the heater on, I focus on everything. No component of that practice - whether live or dry - is done half assed. And I'll practice whether I feel good or bad if I'm getting ready for a big match. I figure those moods can happen on match day so I'd better learn to shoot with them. It's an age old adage, but practice makes perfect if you practice perfectly. If you don't just say it, and you truly mean it, your improvement will be noticeable and rewarding.

I never personally responded to your initial question - in large part because I felt the thread was getting out of whack. Now that it feels as though it's back on track - when I was really hitting it hard I'd shoot on average about 20-30K rounds a year. That included practice and matches. I'd "formally" dry fire several days a week - the time just depending on the time I had. I handled a gun EVERYDAY! Period. There are few days today that I don't pick one up and go through some motions.

My approach was very focused though. I had a couple of peers that I'd practice with occassionally. Say twice every two weeks or so. My big wins were when I practiced alone. And I am a huge believer in that. That way the practice isn't social for me. It isn't designed to compare to others. It was simply designed for me to shoot the best that I could. To hold myself 100% accountable to what was going on.

And for the most part, I'd shoot a couple practice sessions a week of a couple hundred rounds, and then one longer one - maybe 400 rounds or so.

It was all designed around efficacy. The process never worked if I wasn't committed to learning.

J

[j1b]

When I first read this topic I thought it would be good, but never in a million years did I think there would be so much input. I've been tracking this topic for the last three days and since so many others have shared their insights I figure I'll share mine as well....FWIW

I guess to first qualify myself....I am a pretty fair M shooter in Prod, Limited, and L10. That being said, as far as how much dryfire a person should do....set goals for yourself and put in the time necessary to achieve those goals. And when you do dryfire, do it for as long as you are able to give it 100% concentration. Somedays that might be 10 minutes, and on other days it might be hours. Once a goal has been achieved, set another. That is what has worked for me. Keep in mind that whether you dryfire for 10 minutes per day or for 2 hours a day, it is your desire and the consistency of your effort that will help you achieve your goals.

As for the debate of dryfire vs. livefire.....both are important. There are many skills I can work on and develop through dryfire (draws, reloads, movement, transitions...just to name a few) however, for me the only way to test the skills I have been working on is through livefire. I kind of look at the whole thing academically. The dryfire I do at home are my study sessions. Then when I want to see if I have been studying the correct things, or if there are other things I need more work on I give myself a quiz by going out and doing some livefire practice. The quizes are also beneficial for me because there is no replacement for actually shooting the pistol and actually calling shots and tracking the sights when firing the pistol. Finally, matches are the tests....if I have been studying as much as I should, and have been studying the correct things I can usually expect good results. So for me one is as important as the other. I don't think I would progress much in IPSC without some dryfire, but I also think livefire is important to show that what I am doing in dryfire is translating well into the actual act of shooting the pistol.

Where training law enforcement vs. IPSC shooters is concerned I think there are some things that should be considered. First, when you compare the average cop to the average IPSC shooter you are often looking at two different kinds of shooters. The average cop is someone who doesn't necessarily enjoy shooting, but does it because he needs to for his job. The average IPSC shooter is someone who enjoys shooting, and shoots because they want to. I think everyone reading about this topic would agree that dryfiring is an activity engaged in most often by shooters who enjoy shooting and have a desire to improve. Now, of the two kinds of shooters just mentioned, who do you think is most likely to do any dryfire. Probably not the average cop. So, as law enforcement firearms trainers that leaves us with livefire as our best option. In my experience (I'm also a cop, and a part-time firearms instructor at our state police academy btw) livefire allows us as instructors to most quickly identify and fix problems with an officer's shooting technique. We actually have some time dedicated to dryfire at our academy, but in most cases the recruit officers just go through the motions because they are eager to get to the livefire part of the training. They can't appreciate the benefit of dryfire because most of them are not shooters of the same vein as IPSC shooters are.

So, is dryfire an effective means of training and learning how to shoot? It absolutely can be, but the person doing it has to have the desire to improve, otherwise they may just go through the motions and not realize the potential benefit. But in the absence of that desire to really be a better shooter, livefire practice under the watchful eye of a good firearms instructor is the best bet....just my 2cents worth.

Nice! And . . .

I believe there are lots of folks out there. They want to know what it takes to be a Grand Master. Genetics...great. Lot's of ammo and time to use it...great. Is it required? Hell no.

I know lots of Master and Grand Master shooters that aren't physically superior. I know lots of Master and Grand Master shooters that probably aren't in danger of being called rocket scientists (though most are intelligent in many aspects). Some get there through pure grit. Others have grit, but don't progress no matter how much they shoot.

There are mental processes that need to be understood, in my opinion. There are technical skills that can be learned and mastered. There are various paths to get there.

I don't believe that a shooter needs to have much in the way of physical ability to be able to learn to do well in this game. I don't believe that a shooter must have more than average intelligence to do well (as long as they can get out of there own way from time to time). Live fire...will keep you honest...will time you to the gun...and will build confidence like nothing else.

Anybody that wants it...can get it. It's often a matter of truly deciding.

Nice!!!

Both killer posts.

J

[Ron Ankeny]

It was all designed around efficacy. The process never worked if I wasn't committed to learning.

j1b:

I wish I had learned that the easy way instead of shooting without purpose until I was ankle deep in brass. I made my biggest improvements when I practiced with a purpose and every round was fired as if I were in a match with total focus. Then I learned the value of stopping to reflect and analyze what I had just done. I am glad you shared. I always enjoy reading your posts.

[Ramas]

It was all designed around efficacy. The process never worked if I wasn't committed to learning.

j1b:

I wish I had learned that the easy way instead of shooting without purpose until I was ankle deep in brass. I made my biggest improvements when I practiced with a purpose and every round was fired as if I were in a match with total focus. Then I learned the value of stopping to reflect and analyze what I had just done. I am glad you shared. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Top notch posts here! I agree that your practice must have some purposes to be effective. I am practicing this way about 8 months( by the way, I am very sorry for loosing about 1,5 years not doing my practice like this) and I feel that my learning curve is up, my comfort zones are up, besides this it is the big motivator for me. I try to practice live fire 2 times a week with shooting buddy. We are shooting about 150 rounds each every practice session, but those sessions lasts about 3-4 hours, because we like to ask questions and analyze why it is better, what I will gain from this an so on. I am very happy when timer shows improvement on techniques - this day I lerned something! Training this way gives me feeling of understanding why top guys are doing something like this it comes alot of easier. Do not know why, but it comes to me mutch faster than when my practices have no purpose. My alalyzing, stage breaking skills increased also! I see top guys are shooting a lot of stages the same like me, so I understand that my tactics is correct. Why it is- because every shooting position has its logic explanation. It drives and motivates me!

O.K. Guys, you are speaking a lot of about dry fire, live fire, but what about mental practice? How it looks like? I do not believe if you want to reach GM status you can go without mental practice! Can you write a few words about it? I am very interested in it as other guys I think.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Ramas

[Ramas]

Thread bump.

GM guys, can you give to us, regular shooters, some imputs on mental parctice?

I don't know why, but when speech comes to mental things those guys want to hide something! It seems to me there is the biggest things where top GM guys differ from others GM's!

This thread is more about technical side, but not about mental. I want to hear about mental side of this game more! Can you GM guys give some thoughts on it?

Thank you all!

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm not really sure what else you want to know. There aren't mental exercises as you say beyond visualization. It's not that they wanna hide something, it seems like you think there is more there than there really is.

It isn't necessarily the mind that separates the top GMs from lesser GMs - it's everything. Skill, consistency, experience, and match/stage tactics (there are several threads on that).

[Flexmoney]

We have a whole section of the forum devoted to the mental side. Jake started a pretty good thread on visualization recently. Check it out.

[Ramas]

By the way, I asked Eric Grauffel about mental game on other forum. His answer was a little unexpected:

: "I believe that the mental needs to be trained, that's sure. but it's also an aspect of the personality of each person.

The mental aspect came clear to me around 1997. Your mental is coordinating the all game after the bip, so you actually need to work thinking at other things to do.

I believe you cannot make your techniques unconciously, because that will significate that you are resting on your muscle memory. You need to have your brain concentrated on your movment, even if they are automatic, because you can correct an error very quick and then not loose a bunch of seconds.

I have a different approach than most of the people and than the IPSC library will say." - good answer by champion!