tgibson Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Cav Arms has been the Major Match Sponsor of the MGM Ironman for AT LEAST the last four years. This means they have sent $10K in cash and prizes to our match every year. They are huge supporters of the shooting sports and stand up guys. My thoughts and prayers are with them. TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam B Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 this really sucks, this country is going down the toilet real fast! If it was about money laundering why the hell do they have to drag the guns into it!!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I have no idea of whether there is any applicability to this raid, but there is a former associate of Cav Arms ( who broke off and formed his own company several years ago) who was convicted last year of improprieties in the financial arena. He is currently in a prison somewhere in the federal system. One wonders if perhaps that persons current situation is a factor? I hope and perhaps optimistically believe that not much will come out of this. The Cav Arms guys are pretty straight up as far as the reocrd keeping aspect of their business. Don't read a whole lot into the media frenzy until the text of the search warrants become public knowledge and we can find out what they were looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 There are things here that just don't add up and point to some critical information missing. If the raid was due to Fraud and Money Laundrying, then the FBI would have led the raid maybe with the ATF playing second fiddle due to the fact that it was a gun manufacturer. And if the ATF was after paperwork violations then they don't need a raid, just walk into the office and demand a full inspection. So... it makes one wonder whats going on? Somebody bucking for a promotion on a high visibility bust? The FBI thinking its all bogus and letting the ATF run ahead of good sense? Hopefully, the situation will become clearer and I surely hope that the ATF ends up with a serious blackeye. The really sad thing is 6-18 months from now when Cav Arms has spent hundreds of thousands to defend itself and its all come down to there never have been a case at all, all they will get is a "Sorry". And thats only if they are lucky. We should hold our government law enforcement to a higher standard than that, including the judge who issued the warrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Hopefully, the situation will become clearer and I surely hope that the ATF ends up with a serious blackeye.The really sad thing is 6-18 months from now when Cav Arms has spent hundreds of thousands to defend itself and its all come down to there never have been a case at all, all they will get is a "Sorry". And thats only if they are lucky. We should hold our government law enforcement to a higher standard than that, including the judge who issued the warrant. I agree that a lot of this doesn't make sense or add up, but that's probably because we're only getting small pieces of information right now. An example is that it's incredibly difficult to get a search warrant authorized for a white collar (fraud/money laundering case)....like a huge ordeal....so that doesn't make much sense. It would have to be huge...as in millons of dollars involved. Why would you hope that the ATF gets a "serious blackeye"? I would think everyone wants their federal agencies to act in a proper fashion. If they're acting properly then they were doing what they're supposed to be doing. Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? Excellent question G-ManBart! Federal agency acting improperly. Maybe this should be a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catfish Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? That's what really stinks to me in this case. Neither potential option is really any good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? Justice should be blind. If a gun manufacture breaks the law, they should be punished (and, IMHO, put "out of business"). If a federal agency acts improperly, they should be punished (and, IMHO, put "out of business"). Problem is... the latter never quite seems to happen. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I agree that a lot of this doesn't make sense or add up, but that's probably because we're only getting small pieces of information right now. An example is that it's incredibly difficult to get a search warrant authorized for a white collar (fraud/money laundering case)....like a huge ordeal....so that doesn't make much sense. It would have to be huge...as in millons of dollars involved.Why would you hope that the ATF gets a "serious blackeye"? I would think everyone wants their federal agencies to act in a proper fashion. If they're acting properly then they were doing what they're supposed to be doing. Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? The problem with the ATF is that they've historically been allowed to be somewhat "above the law". Example - a recent "written opinion" by the ATF regarding NFA weapons (specifically a rapid-fire device for a Ruger 10/22 Rifle) was treated as "law" by the ATF and individuals were threatened with prosecution because they violated the "written opinion". Maybe the ATF is still controlled by Clinton-era bureaucrats? I can tell you that the current administration, while much better than anything we'd get from the other side of the aisle, hasn't been nearly as gun-friendly in the past couple years as it was during the first term. Also know there's been a rash of incidents recently where the ATF has closely scrutinized small FFL holders businesses with the express intent of forcing them to close their doors or face prosecution (often for the smallest clerical errors). I don't know who the pupper-master is pulling the strings, but the ATF is NOT a benevolent organization. Bottom line is that they have an agenda and that agenda is definitely anti-gun and anti-freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 (edited) Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? Justice should be blind. If a gun manufacture breaks the law, they should be punished (and, IMHO, put "out of business"). If a federal agency acts improperly, they should be punished (and, IMHO, put "out of business"). Problem is... the latter never quite seems to happen. B Right! And as mentioned previously, If they are innocent (which they are "UNTIL" proven guilty) then all they get is a sorry!! A gun manufacturer breaking the law could be a serial # inncorrectly writen down, the agency doing it is always at the cost of someones individual livelyhood... It seems with the money you need to spend to defend yourself, your guilty from the start... Bottom line is this, we have no idea what is really going on with this case but we have all seen a pattern in the past. The problem is that "IF" some chump behind a besk decides he needs to meet a quota or get some media attention then if he's wrong the accused needs to be able to take legal action and recoup what has been lost and then some. The same thing thats missing in alot of other places nowadays IDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTABILITY. That chump needs to know that if he is wrong there will be a price to pay!! Edited February 29, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Might I be so bold as to suggest locking the thread until such time as a party in the know can inject a fact? Maybe two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 (edited) Regardless of what, when, where, or why ...... you have to admit this is going to cost Cav Arms lots of money to straighten out (lawyers, lost production, etc.). Very very sad, but I wish the Cav Arms guys all the best. (edited for spellin') Edited February 29, 2008 by CHRIS KEEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Unfortunately when the Federal agency is wrong the victim is still put out of business with no recourse. That needs to change. I also would like the process changed where in a situation like this, the suspect is allowed to appear before the Judge also in a hearing before their business is trashed. The agency could stand guard over the premise while its going on so nothing can be removed during the hearing. There is so much at risk for the individuals involved. Given past history where we know one individual in the right position can create a problem to promote an agenda I think it isnt too much to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 With the time and money involved defending yourself the result is usually that you are out of business even though you were innocent. If these government agencies had to reimburse all related cost they would not be so quick to charge through the door as they do now. Even when innocent your finished when they shut down your cash flow and seize all of your assets. Nevermind the employees that won't have a pay check etc. This can go on the congressional hearing calander right after the steriod investigation is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Might I be so bold as to suggest locking the thread until such time as a party in the know can inject a fact? Maybe two? I second that. Jim M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p99shooter Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Sad. In a strange coincidence, this is kinda prophetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Might I be so bold as to suggest locking the thread until such time as a party in the know can inject a fact? Maybe two? -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? A federal agency acting improperly. I don't like a lot of the laws in existence anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Feds seizing and confiscating property so much nowadays that they have to use contractors to handle the grunt work. Including at Cav Arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Might I be so bold as to suggest locking the thread until such time as a party in the know can inject a fact? Maybe two? I second that. Jim M 3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.E.Anglin Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I want to call Shawn & Russel and ask them WTF????, but they don't need peole bothering them with BS right now, I'll wait and let the smoke clear and support them anyway I can... And I know for a fact they don't have any money... and they don't do laundry!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisStock Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Might I be so bold as to suggest locking the thread until such time as a party in the know can inject a fact? Maybe two? I second that. Jim M 3rd +4 Agreed...might be best to let this one sift through the pan a bit and see what comes out in the wash. That doesn't mean the way it was handled doesn't irk me, but I'm willing to sit back and see where it goes for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2fast Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) A vendor that resells Cav Arms products is having some sort of group buy/push with 100% of the money going back to Cav Arms, see below: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&...=5&t=680406 Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:Here is how we can help right now. Before noon tomorrow, Kevin from AGP Arms www.agparms.com/home.php?xid=9da4797a0058d705333b0b0762d1a246 Will post details on CavArms (CA) lowers he is going to sell, with ALL profits (100%) going to CavArms To help our friends at CA, these lowers might need a little more involvement (doing a bit of the work ourselves-the buyers) AGP wants to sell 300 by Monday.I would like us to buy 600 by Sunday [] (twice as many as Kevin wants, and one day earlier than he expects) I know that is what this community can do when one of our own needs assistance.There is no better crew than our members, and you have proven it............. over and over again! [beer] We will be adding products to this effort (in this thread) as they are offered to us (Tshirts,medical equipment, flashlights,etc) again, with ALL the proceeds going to CA. Please, do not posts here until AGP Arms has given us the details we need. Then we can order! Edited February 29, 2008 by j2fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactustactical Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? Bart, not even close. Any law enforcement agency and its employees should be held to a higher standard. If they don't act properly and within legal boundaries, we end up with law enforcement similiar to what goes on in various 3rd world countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Which would really be worse, a gun manufacturer/dealer breaking the law or a federal agency acting improperly? Bart, not even close. Any law enforcement agency and its employees should be held to a higher standard. If they don't act properly and within legal boundaries, we end up with law enforcement similiar to what goes on in various 3rd world countries. I agree 100%. I hate to think that Cavalry Arms was doing something wrong (or maybe just an employee), but I'd rather it be that than have a law enforcement agency doing something wrong intentionally. Sometimes all the facts point to X and it turns out to by Y, but at least that isn't wanton disregard for due process, probable cause and the Bill of Rights. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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