Allowing 22s in USPSA

[JFlowers]

Rather than continue the dicussion that grew up in the "My daughter wants to shoot, Can I use my 22" thread, I have started a new thread to solely discuss the viability of and ruleset for 22s in USPSA. Hopefully, what we want to get out of this is something we can show the BOD how the membership feels on this issue.

The following are just my ideas and a place to start the discussion. I have broken it down into groupings, but feel free to freewheel the discussion. PLEASE DISCUSS NOT FIGHT, WE CAN EASILY DISAGREE LIKE ADULTS.

1) Administration

Two thoughts. One is for USPSA to make a 22 division a "real" division.

The other is for it to be more of a "Local Club Guide to Using 22s In Our Sport". Personally, I like the "Guide" option. Keeps the 22 Issue at the club level, but shows that USPSA recognizes that 22s are a great starting point for juniors/nonshooters/cash challenged, but also keeps it from becoming an admin nightmare of a whole new division. Then Classifiers don't count.

2) Rules

Safety. I like the idea of both holstered and low ready starts and I think the guide should cover both. Scoring is easy, always minor, holes in paper are holes in paper. Steel... here I don't have experience to comment. I know painting will be needed and hits should count without falling. But I have heard 22 have a bad bounceback problem. Comments and experiences?

What about activated targets? If steel don't fall ......

No subdivisions. Since this is Level I only I think it should not matter. Revolver, Limited, Open .. if its a 22 you shoot it under these guidelines and thats that.

Magazine limits? I know most popular 22 pistols are 10 rounds but I am sure that somewhere there is an oddball.

Other issues?

[Chuck D]

Sounds like a great way to introduce new shooters to IPSC at the local level. Pay a reduced match fee, bring your 22, some spare mags and have at it.

I would set up a seperate stage or two, space, time, and worker availability permitting.

[vluc]

Who would it be limited to? You indicated juniors/nonshooters/cash challenged or just anybody who wants to shoot .22? A good notion, don't get me wrong. Kudos for the thought.

I would not want to see it become a separate division. Keep it club level (totally an option for a club, not a requirement), run by the rules, and I would avoid steel with it unless it is a "Steel Challenge" type of static steel.

I have concerns that we may not get people moving out of it once they are in there shooting it. In the othere thread, a poster indicated it should be open to adults as well as juniors. Why move into the other divisions with their associated costs when you can stay where you are at? Would they be required to become a USPSA member? Would match fees be different than what the USPSA shooters are charged? Who will run their specific stages when many clubs cannot find helpers to do the regular stages? All points that could be worked out once we get the basics down.

If a club offers this, will it be alongside the regular match, part of the match or a separate side match? Will it be offered on a monthly basis or a catch as catch can? A sure way to lose people is to have them come out for a match and be unable to shoot it.

Edited January 3, 2008 by vluc

[zxd9]

I think a .22 division is a great idea, even if limited to club level matches. I think we either need to limit it to iron sights only or have iron and optics as seperate groups. I think an upper age limit of 14-16 would be good too.

[JFlowers]

vluc and zxd9,

I am one of the people who think it ought to be open to everyone. And here is my thought process ... I have some friend .. lets call him Joe. Joe has never shot a gun or only a 22 as a kid. I get Joe interested, but the only other gun I have is my Ruger 22/45. I don't think we should come up with something that stops me from bringing Joe and having him shoot with my 22.

But, I had never thought about people not wanting to shoot something other than a 22......

Is that really an issue though? If Sam is a USPSA shooter and Sam's wife wants to shoot a 22 at the local club match every week, is that a bad thing? I don't see where it is. Cause if Sam's wife is happy shooting, then Sam is happier and Sam Jr gets into the sport easy.

If we can build guidelines that are safe, easy, and cause a club to have to do no special work (and USPSA approves of course) then why is Sam's wife, or old man Jim with his hand tore up from arthritis shooting a 22 every week an problem? Or is your concern not them, but Joe from above keeps shooting my 22 week in and week out. My hope would be that Joe would want to move into something bigger......

Still, feedback and ideas make life go round!

[AikiDale]

I like the idea of a level 1 rimfire L-10 division. L-10 rules apply with two deviations:

1. Steel need not fall to count for score.

2. Low ready in lieu of holster draw permitted.

Edited to change from PD to L-10. I'd like to keep the mag limit to 10 and iron sights to keep it as level a playing field as possible for those new to the game.

Edited January 3, 2008 by AikiDale

[JThompson]

Some sort of mandatory class to teach safe gun handling before shooting any event. We should teach the basics of muzzle direction moving with the finger outside the guard.... etc etc. If just one kid gets hurt than this could really blow up in our face. I know the people here would already have instilled that in your kids, but we have to do this to cover everyone, esp those that don't have a RO in the family.

As far as I'm concerned this is a MUST no exceptions! Upon completion they would get a card that shows they have completed the class and shown they know how to handle their gun safely.

Edited January 3, 2008 by JThompson

[SA Friday]

1st, this is a really awesome idea.

2nd, Vluc has a very valid point. If not regulated in some fashon, there will be squatters. rules that dictated a max age limit for Jr's and only one year for adult beginners? will this spin off into a provisional 22 cal division?

3rd, at some point there might be a need for the info here to transfer over to the USPSA forum, but quite a few Area Directors read over here too.

[SA Friday]

Some sort of mandatory class to teach safe gun handling before shooting any event. We should teach the basics of muzzle direction moving with the finger outside the guard.... etc etc. If just one kid gets hurt than this could really blow up in our face. I know the people here would already have instilled that in your kids, but we have to do this to cover everyone, esp those that don't have a RO in the family.

As far as I'm concerned this is a MUST no exceptions! Upon completion they would get a card that shows they have completed the class and shown they know how to handle their gun safely.

Their parent (or designated adult with paperwork from guardian designating them temp guardianship while shooting) will have to be present too while they shoot.

[ebg3]

I think it should be limited to certain stages after the match or between squads. I can appreciate wanting to introduce new shooters but shooting a .22 is not the same game and it shouldn't be allowed in a match. Start the new shooters out with .22's in practice and work them up to a minor 9/.40 for shooting a match. There are enough people out there willing to lend these new shooters guns/equipment to shoot if they don't have what they need. Just my $.02.

[Carlos]

I am opposed to .22s in USPSA because it violates one of the three original principles of USPSA/IPSC: the "V" in "DVC"

Moreover, USPSA now owns a sport that is BETTER for beginners AND it includes a .22 division: Steel Challenge (SC). SC is a better sport for beginners because it has little to NO movement and it virtually eliminates the possibility of a 180 break or other challenges that movement presents (and that beginners don't need to risk). Unlike USPSA, the SC does not even required a holster IIRC (anyone know what the best race holster under $200 for a Ruger MKII? - lets not go there). If there is demand for .22 class locally, its a simple matter for almost any club to host at least one side stage under steel challenge rules.

I agree w/ Vluc's concerns too:

I have concerns that we may not get people moving out of it once they are in there shooting it. In the othere thread, a poster indicated it should be open to adults as well as juniors. Why move into the other divisions with their associated costs when you can stay where you are at? Would they be required to become a USPSA member? Would match fees be different than what the USPSA shooters are charged? Who will run their specific stages when many clubs cannot find helpers to do the regular stages? All points that could be worked out once we get the basics down.

Keep the "V" in DVC, please.

PS - before anyone brings up "bunnyfart minor 9mm loads" note that one of the most common Production division loads is a 147 grn JHP at about 900 FPS - which is VERY comparable to the "147 JHP Subsonic" which was one of the more popular 9mm loads for law enforcement in the last 2 decades - though granted it has likely been surpassed in popularity by the the 127 grn +p+ 9mm load. Don't compare the 147 grn JHP subsonic to a .22 as they are nothing alike.

[ofcrfs242]

Very true the sub sonic 9mm loads are nothing like a 22 load. My thought is why limit the participation to those who can handle a 9mm. Get them interested and shooting our game early and have a life long shooter.

There are safety concerns that would have to be worked out.

As was already posted have a mandatory safety course by a certified RO. Mandate them to attend a certain number of matches as observers before being able to shoot. I think that most RO's would not have a problem helping with the safety course.

I can see the point that having 30 shooters show up to shoot the 22 at the match could be a problem. A lot of people are not going to want to sit around for hours waiting for all of the 22 shooters to shoot before shooting the stage themselves.

I would definately keep it at the level I or it could easlily be conceived as trying to put more work on the BOD and a scoring nightmare.

As for someone wanting to squat in the 22 shoot. So what. That person isn't going to be classified and would have very little advantage for doing so.

[GentlemanJim]

Quick reality check.....What did it take to get SS back as a division?

My guess is a 22 division within USPSA just wont happen...way TOO many issues in making it compatible with existing courses of fire and equipment.

as far as youngsters or new shooters starting out with a 22 ...and Moving up to 9mm or whatever ASAP....(training, stature ect)...I am all in for that!!!!

I would bend over backwards to help grow a new or young shooter!...and I think any MD in a local club would agree.

Trying to recreate existing USPSA rules to allow 22 as a division ...IMHO simply wont work.

an RO Calling shots on steel for a 22 shooter would work at the local level for a novice or young shooter...not so well at a levelxx match.

And 22 is just not going to work with the equipment (steel targets, activators ect) that we now use.

This idea has merit....but I dont think it is practical.

Jim

[mikegot38]

We allow .22 rimfire from low ready for the young shooters who already shoot steel with a .22 and want to try some movement before mom and dad have to spend $ on a centerfire hangun. Nobody has complained yet and I am always happy to see new shooters even with a .22.

Mike

[Chris Keen]

I think everyone except JFlowers is missing one thing .............. what about steel that activates movers ???

[Alan Meek]

What about starts requiring a shooter to start facing uprange?

[Alan Meek]

And then down the road, how long until somebody wanted USPSA to allow airsoft at the matches?

This is a game played by a set of rules. Those rules have been defined and refined over the years.

[vluc]

As for someone wanting to squat in the 22 shoot. So what. That person isn't going to be classified and would have very little advantage for doing so.

And how does that grow membership and add new shooters to the rolls?

If the purpose of doing this is to develop a true 'entry" level, then they have to move on, have to become a full-fledged member of USPSA in the other Divisions. Not sure if offering a pared and watered down version of what we do is the best way to do this.

Edited January 3, 2008 by vluc

[heidit]

Some sort of mandatory class to teach safe gun handling before shooting any event. We should teach the basics of muzzle direction moving with the finger outside the guard.... etc etc. If just one kid gets hurt than this could really blow up in our face. I know the people here would already have instilled that in your kids, but we have to do this to cover everyone, esp those that don't have a RO in the family.

As far as I'm concerned this is a MUST no exceptions! Upon completion they would get a card that shows they have completed the class and shown they know how to handle their gun safely.

Their parent (or designated adult with paperwork from guardian designating them temp guardianship while shooting) will have to be present too while they shoot.

I am new to THIS shooting sport; however I have for several years been working with Jrs. & Sub Jr. Shooters in the CMP & NRA. In our club you don't even get to shoot pistols bench rest (much less run with them) until you have achieved marksman 1st class with a rifle. As for Safety instruction, all shooters take an initial 1 1/2 hour safety instruction course the first time out. The kids who shoot pistol take the 8 hr pistol course, 2 hrs on Saturdays once a month, then they shoot "AFTER" class. No class, no shoot. We don't have to reinvent the wheel for pistol training, just tweak it a bit. We always have a safety briefing (10 minutes), all shooters must attend before they can shoot. We do have forms for hold harmless; we also have notarized forms signed by parents for emergency medical treatment.

Until 2006 or 2007 ROTC/CMP/NRA junior shooting sports had been accident free. They had three incidents as I recall. One shotgun coach was shot by a jr. shooter, one kid who walked down a LIVE range to get a target and bent over into the joining lane to pick up a piece of paper he was shot, and one parent in a training class let loose an air rifle round, in the classroom. To that point because of the caution taken by coaches and strict guidelines no reported incidents had occurred in the history of the program.

1. I really feel that parents MUST stay on the range with their kids. Our club will let parents drop kids off. If it were my call - NO WAY... Parents gotta stay.

2. The RO should spend a few minutes with the kid. I have no problem putting a pistol in the hands of my 13 year old to run a course, but I would NOT and do not give my 12 year old a pistol with being right on top of him. It's just scary!

3. The RO should have the final say if the kids are going to be allowed to shoot.

4. Jr. Shooters (15 & under) should or MUST be accompanied by at least one parent or coach while on the range wearing a firearm. For everyone's protection and general sanity!

As a parent of a Jr. shooter I want him to try as many different shooting environments as possible. We wanted to shoot Palma last year, but they were uncomfortable with Scooters age. You have to respect that. (Even though I think they were secretly afraid he would out shoot them) Who me? A stage mother... naa.

When he was 9 we tried to get into the local Jr. shotgun club... they slapped a gun in his hands, he shot 3 rounds, they declared him to small, told us to keep the t-shirt and come back in a year. What ya gonna do. The bottom line is either you can handle the firearm safely or not at all.

As a side note I aksed my son what he thinks about kids shooting 22's for IPSC, his responce was "Kids could shoot 22's until they are 12 or 13 then NORMALY kids start shooting 9mm anyway. Normaly? Now that's funny!

Edited January 3, 2008 by heidit

[DJPoLo]

I am extremely opposed to the idea of .22s in USPSA and have been for years.

Check out my rant from Sept. 2003:

I hate this idea and am so vocal about it locally that (I'm sure) all the mommies and daddies in my 'hood who want their 6 year old to shoot club IPSC matches hate me.

IPSC puts an empahis on accuracy, speed and POWER. As range master of my local club, I certainly don't want to spent any of our money on plastic poppers, etc. to make our COF's .22 friendly. I am going to design and approve fun, challenging COF's that may include popper activated targets that will keep our seasoned shooters and our new shooters coming back for more of the same next month. If you want to introduce the 'lil ones (or anyone else who can't deal with a 125 power factor gun) to the "action" shooting sports, take them to a Steel Challenge match that allows .22's. THEN, after they have had a taste of that and have tried a center fire handgun that meets the minimum requirements for IPSC/USPSA, take them to a local IPSC club match with their >125 PF gun.

I don't care what one's local club does in regards to a .22 division, but I will never support a USPSA pop gun division which limits my stage design options.

<flame-proof suit on, mommies and daddies>

-Chet

[g.willikers]

We had .22 only side matches at our club and it usually drew about 5 - 10 extra people plus a dozen or so regulars, who joined in after finishing the match stages.

There was a lot of reactive targets, plus whatever else we could dream up. The reactive targets were small, lightweight steel that fell easily, strings of clay pigeons on cardboard, knockover wooden stuff, 'etc.

There were also poppers, the smaller uspsa version, and swingers to acclimate folks to develop regular match skills. The swingers were hand activated, although .22s will, indeed, knock over lightly set poppers with two or three hits. Sometimes only one is needed if the popper is hit high up.

Some of the participants, like my wife, were only interested in .22, but quite a few moved up to the regular matches after getting skilled and confident with their rimfires.

It wasn't hard finding someone to RO the rimfire matches, either. The RO, maybe with a helper, stayed with the stage all day and also got a lot of fun rimfire trigger time.

When it was my turn to run it, betcha' I did it at least five times during the day. Great fun, too.

We charged a small fee of $3 - $5 for adults, depending on what was needed for targets and such, and nothing for juniors.

When the next crew took over running the matches and dropped the rimfire match, the general attendance went down a bunch. Guess they didn't care since the .22s were never renewed. But it's definitely a good idea and will bring in new folks.

And it's just plain fun.

[SA Friday]

And then down the road, how long until somebody wanted USPSA to allow airsoft at the matches?

This is a game played by a set of rules. Those rules have been defined and refined over the years.

I believe this subject is simply at the 'healthy debate of pros and cons' time period. I would imagine there was a lot of this type of discussion about Production and Single Stack too. There are very compelling reasons to want something that will bring more youth to USPSA and shooting in general. There are also some very compelling reasons to not want a 22 cal division in USPSA.

The more I read the less concrete my position is becoming. I can see both sides. I can also see where there could be a middle ground in all of this. As a parent of a daughter that desparately wants to shoot USPSA but cannot currently wield a 9mm through a COF just yet (she's petite to say the least), I empathize for her. But, as a very involved newcomer, I don't want to see the sport become warped through a miscalculated decision.

This is an idea. Can it work? Do we want it to work? Is it flawed? What are the issues to look at concerning it?

Hey, arn't you a politician now?

[tpcdvc]

I am extremely opposed to the idea of .22s in USPSA and have been for years.

Check out my rant from Sept. 2003:

I hate this idea and am so vocal about it locally that (I'm sure) all the mommies and daddies in my 'hood who want their 6 year old to shoot club IPSC matches hate me.

IPSC puts an empahis on accuracy, speed and POWER. As range master of my local club, I certainly don't want to spent any of our money on plastic poppers, etc. to make our COF's .22 friendly. I am going to design and approve fun, challenging COF's that may include popper activated targets that will keep our seasoned shooters and our new shooters coming back for more of the same next month. If you want to introduce the 'lil ones (or anyone else who can't deal with a 125 power factor gun) to the "action" shooting sports, take them to a Steel Challenge match that allows .22's. THEN, after they have had a taste of that and have tried a center fire handgun that meets the minimum requirements for IPSC/USPSA, take them to a local IPSC club match with their >125 PF gun.

I don't care what one's local club does in regards to a .22 division, but I will never support a USPSA pop gun division which limits my stage design options.

<flame-proof suit on, mommies and daddies>

-Chet

I couldn't disagree more. I think it is great to see youngsters at uspsa matches. We have a couple of young ones come and shoot and if they happen to be shooting a 22 we just score procedurals when needed (in the case of activating targets). No big deal. At this early age it is about learning and not scoring anyway. Therefore, you don't have to design stages with the 22 in mind. For that matter I think an airsoft is fine too. It will make holes in paper and of course will not knock down steel but you can tell if they hit it. And of course procedurals when necessary. However I too do not think it should be a division in USPSA. But I see nothing wrong with extending this courtesy to our young shooters. It can only help grow our sport.

Well I guess what I am saying is that while I don't support a 22 division I think it is important to allow young shooters to get involved at the local level.

Tim

Edited January 3, 2008 by tpcdvc

[Chris Keen]

It certainly makes picking up your brass more difficult.

[Ron Ankeny]

Well I guess what I am saying is that while I don't support a 22 division I think it is important to allow young shooters to get involved at the local level.

I have been staying out of this, but I agree with the comment above. As a public school teacher and former hunter safety instructor, I know there are kids who could navigate their way through USPSA courses with a .22 at a very early age if coached and accompanied by their parents. I also know for a fact there are youngsters in the age group being discussed who have no business doing anything other than static shooting as in steel challenge, GSSF or bullseye.

I think we should just leave well enough alone. If a kid wants to shoot sub-minor, let the local club decide how to handle it on a case by case basis. We have done just that in our club and I had no problems allowing the younster to shoot. Doing so as a recognized division just isn't a good idea because of the various start positions, activating targets, etc...