Switching calibers and nothing else in Production

[ipscbob]

Can't really believe to what I have read in a few posts here.

For me rules are rules, period. Like or not, either you play by the rules or you play a different game.

If you want to be nice to a newcomer (and I WANT, because the sport needs new people), you can explain him the rules, you can help him complying to them, you can even offer to loan a gun which is rules compliant, you can ... show how nice and helping IPSC people are!

What you can't do is to bend the rules to comply with everyone's desire.

Ask yourself: "Am I doing really any good to him by bending the rules to allow him play the way he likes?".

The attitude about not having to follow rules in local, level 1, matches has been fostered for so long by the exemption in the green book that it is now very deeply rooted. Very good to see it go in the new rules.

[ChuckS]

The attitude about not having to follow rules in local, level 1, matches has been fostered for so long by the exemption in the green book that it is now very deeply rooted. Very good to see it go in the new rules.

What exemption are you referring to?

Later,

Chuck

[professor]

A guy has a box stock G22, none of the usual production legal mods done to it. In order to keep playing the game they need to start shooting 9mm so they drop in a 9mm barrel in, factory or non-factory but identical specs, no other mods. Do you bump them to open? Would you let it slide at a monthly local match?

Just to remind everybody, this is the post that started this thread. Please note it says, "In order to KEEP PLAYING THE GAME they need to start shooting 9mm..."

This is NOT a new shooter with a non-conforming gun showing up for the first time at the range. This is a shooter who has been competing with a G22, who wants to convert to 9mm to cut ammo costs, supposedly. And he/she wants to do it on the cheap by simply switching to a 9mm barrel on his present gun [and getting about 5-9mm mags].

They presumably have been around long enough to know we have separate divisions with specific equipment rules and regulations. They have been competing using the G22 and .40 ammo, so presumably they've been competing in Ltd or L10. And now, they want to switch to 9 mm ammo "to cut ammo costs" and, oh yeah, compete in Production division.

They already KNOW they can compete in Ltd and L10 with the converted gun. If all they want to do is reduce ammo costs, they'd make the conversion and compete in Ltd or L10. End of controversy.

I STRONGLY suspect that their ulterior motive in switching barrels is to compete in Production division "on the cheap". You can get a drop-in barrel to convert the G22 to 9 mm for less than $100. You'll spend another $100 on 5-9mm mags. [www.cheaperthandirt.com] Actually buying a 9mm Glock would set them back maybe $500, less for a used gun. So their difference in cost of shooting in Production with a legal gun is $400 or less.

Based on the factory ammo cost differential between 9mm and 40 ammo of $10 per box of 50, they'll make up a $400 differential by shooting 2,000 rounds. That's about 2 month's matches and practice for many of us.

Based on this interpretation of the rationale for making the conversion and attempting to switch divisions, I'd flat out tell the cheap B.....D that he's either shooting Ltd/L10, or he gets a gun that's legal in Production division.

And after telling him that, if he insists on registering for Production division with that gun, I'd bump him to Open in a heartbeat.

Edited October 17, 2007 by professor

[vluc]

Don't hold back, Stan. Tell us what you really think!

[GeorgeInNePa]

A guy has a box stock G22, none of the usual production legal mods done to it. In order to keep playing the game they need to start shooting 9mm so they drop in a 9mm barrel in, factory or non-factory but identical specs, no other mods. Do you bump them to open? Would you let it slide at a monthly local match?

Just to remind everybody, this is the post that started this thread. Please note it says, "In order to KEEP PLAYING THE GAME they need to start shooting 9mm..."

This is NOT a new shooter with a non-conforming gun showing up for the first time at the range. This is a shooter who has been competing with a G22, who wants to convert to 9mm to cut ammo costs, supposedly. And he/she wants to do it on the cheap by simply switching to a 9mm barrel on his present gun [and getting about 5-9mm mags].

They presumably have been around long enough to know we have separate divisions with specific equipment rules and regulations. They have been competing using the G22 and .40 ammo, so presumably they've been competing in Ltd or L10. And now, they want to switch to 9 mm ammo "to cut ammo costs" and, oh yeah, compete in Production division.

They already KNOW they can compete in Ltd and L10 with the converted gun. If all they want to do is reduce ammo costs, they'd make the conversion and compete in Ltd or L10. End of controversy.

I STRONGLY suspect that their ulterior motive in switching barrels is to compete in Production division "on the cheap". You can get a drop-in barrel to convert the G22 to 9 mm for less than $100. You'll spend another $100 on 5-9mm mags. [www.cheaperthandirt.com] Actually buying a 9mm Glock would set them back maybe $500, less for a used gun. So their difference in cost of shooting in Production with a legal gun is $400 or less.

Based on the factory ammo cost differential between 9mm and 40 ammo of $10 per box of 50, they'll make up a $400 differential by shooting 2,000 rounds. That's about 2 month's matches and practice for many of us.

Based on this interpretation of the rationale for making the conversion and attempting to switch divisions, I'd flat out tell the cheap B.....D that he's either shooting Ltd/L10, or he gets a gun that's legal in Production division.

And after telling him that, if he insists on registering for Production division with that gun, I'd bump him to Open in a heartbeat.

I agree, new shooter, I would bend the rules. With someone who's been around a while, they get the talk and then the bump.

[LPatterson]

- Rules are the same for all level matches.

- It's against the rules.

- I'm far too busy during local matches to be doing equipment inspection.

After reading through both pages because I am a firm believer in rules (except when I am driving) this is the post that sticks in my mind. At our local matches the most you can win is a piece of metal shaped like a target so BFD. After all how many Limited/L10 shooters are really shooting ammo about 165 PF at all locals matches. I have heard several times shooters say they ran out of match amm and had to use their practice ammo. The practice ammo for my revo just happens to be 163-164.

[eerw]

- Rules are the same for all level matches.

- It's against the rules.

- I'm far too busy during local matches to be doing equipment inspection.

After reading through both pages because I am a firm believer in rules (except when I am driving) this is the post that sticks in my mind. At our local matches the most you can win is a piece of metal shaped like a target so BFD. After all how many Limited/L10 shooters are really shooting ammo about 165 PF at all locals matches. I have heard several times shooters say they ran out of match amm and had to use their practice ammo. The practice ammo for my revo just happens to be 163-164.

if someone asks..I think you have to explain the rules..as that is what we play by..

what people do is what people do..you would hope that all play honorably..

character is what you have when no one is watching.

[vluc]

oops

Edited October 17, 2007 by vluc

[sslav]

After all how many Limited/L10 shooters are really shooting ammo about 165 PF at all locals matches.

We had a surprise chrono at a recent local match and I think 2, maybe 3 shooters did not make their PF out of abotu 60. So in this, very isolated, example about 95% of the shooters were shooting at the appropriate PF.

Slav

[Flexmoney]

If you don't follow the rules...where do you draw the line? Who decides? Which rules are followed and which aren't? For how long?

Who's common sense is common? (And, if that is better than the rule book, then why not get the rule book changed?)

I shot a 40 caliber Glock in Production. I switched up to a 9mm Glock to save money. Would it be fair for me to shoot a 40 caliber Glock in Production with a 9mm barrel? Keep in mind, I can count...on my fingers... the number of 'prize table' matches that I have shot. Would it be OK for me to do that at the local level?

Just because we aren't shooting for money and prizes...does that mean nothing is at stake? If so, why keep score?

If a shooter really doesn't care...then ask if they get upset/happy when the scores come out. Most care. If they don't...then heck...why not sign up in Open?

Is there still a dilemma ? Sure there is. What we need is a way around it...without breaking the rules.

[the duck of death]

Here's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Glock 22 w/a 9mm barrel----- the G17 has 17 and 9X19 on the slide, the Glock 22 has 22 and 40 on the slide. Other than that they are exactly the same. Advantage of shooting a G17 over shooting a G22 w/a 9mm barrel.-----------ZERO

But as we know a rule doesn't have to make sense, it only needs to be a rule. AND IT MUST BE FOLLOWED!!!

[mscott]

I think the problem might be if a shooter put a .40 barrel in a 10mm Glock. They are available and that could certainly be an advantage.

[dwt]

I have 4 10mm bbl's for my Glock-20's and [2-40 conversion bbl's] they all will run 40's just fine , no difference in reliabilty or accuracy .I can load 10mm to minor,major or super major and I load 40S&W to minor or major ,long or short it doesn't matter.Same bullet diameter as most everyone knows . I shoot Open,Limited,L-10 and Production with this same platform,very few problems[except old age] over the last 3/4 yrs .

[HoMiE]

The problem is that from going from 40 to 9, the barrel will be just a little bit heavier since it will be thicker. Is the added weight going to be that much of an advantage, maybey, maybey not. Well, if I can do it with a 40, why can't I do it with a 45 and the barrel might be even a little bit more heavier. Next thing you know, everybody in production is shooting with a modified gun to get that extra barrel weight to help with recoil. That's the way I see it and why the rule is in affect.

If your new to shooting, I would agree the best approach is to let them know in a nice way about the rules. If you know the rules, play by them.

[JFD]

It seems like it would be that big of deal to trade a G22 for a G17, thus avoiding the "need" to break the rules.

"it's just a local match" is a BS excuse for breaking rules. I see it on occasion, but at least half the time other shooters call BS and the rules are followed. Last time it happened the RO wanted to give a reshoot for a death jam. BS was called and the shooter got to reshoot the stage, but not for score. The shooter was fairly new (another excuse used for breaking rules) and had no idea what we were mildly arguing about.

[Chuck Anderson]

It seems like it would be that big of deal to trade a G22 for a G17, thus avoiding the "need" to break the rules.

Mike's from Canada so it might be a big deal to change guns up there. At least harder than here in the US. Doesn't change my opinion just saying.

As far as the rules at level 1 matches and brining ni new members. What members are we trying to bring in? I've had a lot of new shooters start. Not one cared what division that they shot at first. They just showed up and shot what we told them. If they liked the sport they found a division that worked for them. What would have turned me off at my first match is a lack of respect for the rules. Even worse as a fairly new but not quite wet behind the ears. There are few things the tick me off more than having different standards for different folks. How do you tell the shooter that has shot 10 matches with his Production gun that the newbie who just showed up and beat him in Production with a gun that didn't meet that divisions standards if fair. It's okay, he's a newbie? Seems like that would do a lot more to piss off the guy that has been shooting for a year or so.

On a side note. I shot a match this weekend with a shooter who was using the same logic. He was coaching shooters. Did it the first time at the end of a stage with a steel left up. All the sudden he's coughing. I let that one slide. Next stage a fairly new shooter (3rd Match) is having a gun problem. He's yelling how to fix it. (He was yelling the wrong thing, but still trying to coach). At the end of the stage I told him to knock it off. I got a less than polite no. I'm not going to. He's a new shooter and I'm going to coach him. ( I should note that the first coached shooter was not new and has been shooting for several years). So here's my side question, not sure if it should be a separate thread. Obviously a procedural was warranted. But what about the shooter that continues. Because for me the next time he did he was getting the proc. The time after he was getting a DQ.

[DarthMuffin]

The rules say you have to use the same ammo for the whole match, so changing calibers is a no-go. By the rules you can't even bump him up to Open.

In a local match I would let him continue to shoot and even score him so he can see his comparative standings, but he would not be eligible for prizes/awards and we wouldn't send in his classifier score. I may even put a note on the posted match results noting as such so his peers know that comparing scores with him may not be equivalent for this match.

The way I see it, he paid his money and wants to have his fun. It's not a safety issue, so let him shoot but not as part of USPSA.

[mjbine]

The rules say you have to use the same ammo for the whole match, so changing calibers is a no-go. By the rules you can't even bump him up to Open.

In a local match I would let him continue to shoot and even score him so he can see his comparative standings, but he would not be eligible for prizes/awards and we wouldn't send in his classifier score. I may even put a note on the posted match results noting as such so his peers know that comparing scores with him may not be equivalent for this match.

The way I see it, he paid his money and wants to have his fun. It's not a safety issue, so let him shoot but not as part of USPSA.

Why not just shoot L10 or LTD then the shooter would be within the rules? Explain the rules and place him in the correct division. He is there to have some fun and shoot. So let him do it the proper way.

Edited October 18, 2007 by mjbine

[vluc]

For what it is worth.

APPENDIX A1

IPSC Match Levels

Key: N/A = Not Applicable, R = Recommended, M = Mandatory

Level I Level II Level III Level IV Level V

01. Must follow latest edition IPSC rules M M M M M

Edited October 18, 2007 by vluc

[ipscbob]

The attitude about not having to follow rules in local, level 1, matches has been fostered for so long by the exemption in the green book that it is now very deeply rooted. Very good to see it go in the new rules.

What exemption are you referring to?

Later,

Chuck

US 1.1.5.1 is often used as a blanket excuse for level 1 matches not having to follow the rules. This sort of thing is a slippery slope......

[HoMiE]

The attitude about not having to follow rules in local, level 1, matches has been fostered for so long by the exemption in the green book that it is now very deeply rooted. Very good to see it go in the new rules.

What exemption are you referring to?

Later,

Chuck

US 1.1.5.1 is often used as a blanket excuse for level 1 matches not having to follow the rules. This sort of thing is a slippery slope......

I would only see 1.1.5.1 as a way for clubs to make exemptions for course design only. It only makes referrence to freestlye and round count limitations. I.E., popper must be engaged from this spot. It makes no exemptions for competitor equipment or anything else, period.

[Skywalker]

I would only see 1.1.5.1 as a way for clubs to make exemptions for course design only. It only makes referrence to freestlye and round count limitations. I.E., popper must be engaged from this spot. It makes no exemptions for competitor equipment or anything else, period.

Good read of the rules.

This IS what rule 1.1.5.1 is for.

[ChuckS]

I would only see 1.1.5.1 as a way for clubs to make exemptions for course design only. It only makes referrence to freestlye and round count limitations. I.E., popper must be engaged from this spot. It makes no exemptions for competitor equipment or anything else, period.

Good read of the rules.

This IS what rule 1.1.5.1 is for.

In fact, if you look at US Appendix A1, USPSA Match Levels, Item 01 states "Must follow latest edition USPSA rules" is M for mandatory! I am pretty sure 1.1.5.1 is the only exception to that in the 2004 book. Definitely nothing in the equipment rules overrides that M requirement.

[Cuz]

I agree, new shooter, I would bend the rules. With someone who's been around a while, they get the talk and then the bump.

Why couldn't the new shooter just shoot in L10? Most likely all they want to do is play the game so it shouldn't matter to them. As for the original poster, same goes for him. He can shoot in L10, or Limited where he could even use his hi-cap mags if he wanted. No sweat.

Just my inexperienced two cents, probably not really worth that much tho.

-Cuz.