Dillon- Made in China?

[zhunter]

I love my CED Timer!!!!

[Matt P.]

I love my CED timer and big board!

[ChuckS]

I can remember this conversation with the word Japan instead of China....

I worked for Xerox in the mid-80's and was on a couple of projects that were joint ventures with Fuji Xerox. The guys over there had one fear for their future business: China. It looks like they were right.

On a side note, our country seems to be pretty good at ignoring the long term for short term profits. The work we were doing at Xerox PARC was some of the first practical work in what we called Large Area Integration. This technology was the technological basis for modern large LCD displays. At the time, the big business was DRAM for PCs and such. We could not get the interest of ANY US semiconductor equipment manaufacturer. The Japanese were more than happy to help. Take a look around the house and car and see what we gave up 20 years ago.

Everything got stolen from PARC!

Apple nicked the mouse and the GUI, 3Com got the LAN (at least initially, although I think the founder was a PARC alumni) and Adobe made something out of PostScript..

Actually, the Mouse came from a guy at SRI, although PARC did a lot of the early work with it. They tried all different combinations like 1 button, 2 buttons, 3 buttons, and one 3 button with the buttons running left to right! There was a prototype where someone had adapted pedals from an electronic organ!

Bob Metcalf, a PARC researcher, was the inventor of the Ethernet. He left Xerox and formed 3-Com. As far as Adobe, Xerox led the way in the page description language. The first attempt was called "Press". It was a raster-format for the laser printer*. Press needed font bit maps for all type faces on the printer so the print engine needed mucho storage and processing time. Chuck Geschke and John Warnock looked at the printer requirements and the personal workstation. They came to realize that the personal workstation is usually doing nothing other than generating a display and waiting for the user to do something. The printer, a shared resource (expensive back then) was a bottleneck! They set out to come up with a printing architecture that would make better use of the workstation. The result was called Interpress. Interpress had things like scalable fonts, rotation, etc.

At the time, Xerox was making a ton of money leasing big iron printers so when the boys went to management saying that they could reduce a profit center, the company declined to support them. Long story short, G&W arranged to take their concept of a PDL out into the world and begat Postscript. (There may be some sarcasm in that product name )

*Laser printer. A guy named Gary Starkweather was a researcher at PARC. He was looking at a large volume copier and realized that if he could modulate a light beam, he could put the image on the drum directly and use it as a printer. He ordered one of the big business machines and modified it with a laser and a rotating polygon to scan the beam across the drum. He built a formatter that rotated the image so it could write the long dimension first and thusly invented the laser printer. The drive electronics that are in your printer next to your PC fit in 3 6' 19" wide racks!

There was tons of other stuff that came from PARC. Heck, my own group built the world's first 1 FOOT long integrated circuit. Imagine patterning a 1 foot aluminum line that is 20 microns wide! We also did a foot longer that had high voltage transistors that work at a supply voltage of 600 Volts! And this was all done starting with a sheet of glass and depositing and etching everything else! That was probably the only job that I had that I would walk out after 12 hours in the lab and be thinking about how soon I would go back.

Yup, Xerox could of had Bill Gates watering the plants but they blew it. But, remember our emphasis on short-term profits. Xerox was making a ton of money on copier / printer leases and supplies. It was very hard to convince the BoD that intentionally eroding the current business base because something as unknown as the electronic office we now take for granted might become big. Especially with bonus plans and such!

On the flip side, some of the scientists at PARC did not always have the best people skills. A common phrase was "Intuitively Obvious", meaning that if you didn't get it, you were stupid. It was sort of like have a whole team of hi-tech Terrel Owen's. West Coast hippy computer nerds and East Coast Ivy League MBAs had some cultural differences.

That was not all of the staff though. There was a group who saw this corporate communication problem and decided to do a "trade show". They took laser printers, work stations and file servers to a resort in Orlando (They figured that they would get good attendance from senior Xerox management if they were did their presentation at a resort with a nice golf course!) and set up an office environment. (This was in the 70's!!) the senior management and wives came and saw email, shared laser printers, embedded graphics, etc. It was said that the only people who "got" it were the executive wives who had once been secretaries!

A guy named Allen Kay invented the "Dyna-book". It is the laptop we all know but at the time the flat panel display had not been invented yet. The circuitry was a hair bigger than today's and the hard-drive of the time was close to the size of a washing machine. There was a artists rendering of the dyna-book in a hallway there that a guy names Osbourne saw and went and formed a company to supply the first portable (sort of) PC. Just based on that picture!

On the software side, PARC had been working GUIs for years when Steve Jobs saw the Smalltalk environment. Adel Goldberg, the lead researcher, tried to fight management in the decision to show this stuff to him but was overruled so the system that feeds today's Mac snobs was born.

Wow, it's been a while since I though about all that stuff. There is a book that covers this stuff called "Fumbling the Future". It makes some interesting reading while being maybe not entirely accurate.

Phew, sorry for the ramble...

Later,

Chuck

[Alan Meek]

I worked for Xerox in the mid-80's and was on a couple of projects that were joint ventures with Fuji Xerox. The guys over there had one fear for their future business: China. It looks like they were right.

....snipped....

Wow, it's been a while since I though about all that stuff. There is a book that covers this stuff called "Fumbling the Future". It makes some interesting reading while being maybe not entirely accurate.

Phew, sorry for the ramble...

Later,

Chuck

Chuck, now do yourself a favor and go send some lead down range buddy

Alan

Edited October 9, 2007 by Alan Meek

[mobocracy]

Wow, it's been a while since I though about all that stuff. There is a book that covers this stuff called "Fumbling the Future". It makes some interesting reading while being maybe not entirely accurate.

Phew, sorry for the ramble...

Later,

Chuck

No, thank you! That's awesome. I was using a bit of hyperbole when referring to Apple and 3Com's "thefts" as I remember some of the details from the generally excellent PBS documentary on the birth of the PC that ran a few years back ("Triumph of the Nerds"?).

Now if we could just get someone from S&W to start "rambling" about that place's history...

[EricW]

Ten years ago, the company I was working for bought a firm in Canada. As a side business, the company in Canada made backlighting for LCDs. I tried to convince the president that he needed to pay a lot more attention to this sideline because pretty soon, no one was going to buy a CRT anything.

It's a totally predictable tale, and the company went under about 4 years later because they couldn't make the super cheap printer parts they were selling to HP financially viable anymore.

We do a lot of it to ourselves.

Edited October 9, 2007 by EricW

[ChuckS]

I worked for Xerox in the mid-80's and was on a couple of projects that were joint ventures with Fuji Xerox. The guys over there had one fear for their future business: China. It looks like they were right.

....snipped....

Wow, it's been a while since I though about all that stuff. There is a book that covers this stuff called "Fumbling the Future". It makes some interesting reading while being maybe not entirely accurate.

Phew, sorry for the ramble...

Later,

Chuck

Chuck, now do yourself a favor and go send some lead down range buddy

Alan

SIR, YES SIR!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GentlemanJim]

I do my very best to buy made in USA ...But many times I have no choice

I would gladly pay more for top quality made in USA.

China holds at least a TRILLION US dollars .....and can destroy our economy at any time they choose.

Beware of China!!!!!

Jim

[Matt P.]

"LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Shares of Yum Brands Inc. rose more than 5 percent on Tuesday after the operator of KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut said its international restaurants served up another strong performance, boosting third-quarter profit.

Yum Brands Inc. on Monday said profit in its China division grew 28 percent and international division profit rose 21 percent for the three months ended Sept. 8. The company's U.S. operation had a scant 1 percent profit growth for the period."

Another company benefiting from selling TO China. It is a 2 way street.

[GentlemanJim]

"LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Shares of Yum Brands Inc. rose more than 5 percent on Tuesday after the operator of KFC, Taco Bell and Pizza Hut said its international restaurants served up another strong performance, boosting third-quarter profit.

Yum Brands Inc. on Monday said profit in its China division grew 28 percent and international division profit rose 21 percent for the three months ended Sept. 8. The company's U.S. operation had a scant 1 percent profit growth for the period."

Another company benefiting from selling TO China. It is a 2 way street.

When We export as much to China as we import ....I will shut up.

Jim

[Matt P.]

Balance in/out has always been a goal but rarely achieved by many nations. Sounds like an easy answer but you win some and lose some.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not defending any position other than a good manufacurer with good quality control can make a good scale in China.

Here are the stats. http://tse.export.gov/HTMLtablesShow.aspx?...7&DESC=true

[dillon]

Due to past decisions in American manufacturing economics, it is simply not realistic to restrict one to solely American-made products. We strive to do this whenever possible, however. Quality American-made textiles and electronics are expensive and hard to come by. The providers of such are usually very narrow niche suppliers, and have much higher prices than foreign-made for the same level of utility. A truly American-made digital scale is available,but at a cost of $500+.

Electrical motors are the next item that is simply going away in America. We have had several motor suppliers shift to China and Mexico. We are still testing American-made motors, but continually run into quality control issues.

All of our reloading equipment is made in the USA, from raw material purchase through all machining, finishing and assembly steps. Whenever possible we prefer American-made products, but 99% of all users won't pay $200 for dial calipers when the Chinese-made ones do essentially the same job, at similar quality, for $28.00. Same with electronic products. Our relationship with CED began well before Mainland China absorbed Hong Kong. We have been very satisfied with the quality of their products, appreciate CEDs continuous efforts toward new product innovation, their support of customer service, and plan to continue dealing with CED for the forseeable future. Same with Royal case. We try dilligently to support American manufacturers whenever possible, balanced with offering our customers a quality product at an affordable price. It can be like "A snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor".

Edited October 9, 2007 by dillon

[GentlemanJim]

Due to past decisions in American manufacturing economics, it is simply not realistic to restrict one to solely American-made products. We strive to do this whenever possible, however. Quality American-made textiles and electronics are expensive and hard to come by. The providers of such are usually very narrow niche suppliers, and have much higher prices than foreign-made for the same level of utility. A truly American-made digital scale is available,but at a cost of $500+.

Electrical motors are the next item that is simply going away in America. We have had several motor suppliers shift to China and Mexico. We are still testing American-made motors, but continually run into quality control issues.

All of our reloading equipment is made in the USA, from raw material purchase through all machining, finishing and assembly steps. Whenever possible we prefer American-made products, but 99% of all users won't pay $200 for dial calipers when the Chinese-made ones do essentially the same job, at similar quality, for $28.00. Same with electronic products. Our relationship with CED began well before Mainland China absorbed Hong Kong. We have been very satisfied with the quality of their products, appreciate CEDs continuous efforts toward new product innovation, their support of customer service, and plan to continue dealing with CED for the forseeable future. Same with Royal case. We try dilligently to support American manufacturers whenever possible, balanced with offering our customers a quality product at an affordable price. It can be like "A snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor".

I have NO gripe with Dillon!!! In many instances we have NO viable choice.

And Dillon does all it can to give us Quality stuff at a reasonable price...including making all parts possible in the USA.

Jim

[zhunter]

Due to past decisions in American manufacturing economics, it is simply not realistic to restrict one to solely American-made products. We strive to do this whenever possible, however. Quality American-made textiles and electronics are expensive and hard to come by. The providers of such are usually very narrow niche suppliers, and have much higher prices than foreign-made for the same level of utility. A truly American-made digital scale is available,but at a cost of $500+.

Electrical motors are the next item that is simply going away in America. We have had several motor suppliers shift to China and Mexico. We are still testing American-made motors, but continually run into quality control issues.

All of our reloading equipment is made in the USA, from raw material purchase through all machining, finishing and assembly steps. Whenever possible we prefer American-made products, but 99% of all users won't pay $200 for dial calipers when the Chinese-made ones do essentially the same job, at similar quality, for $28.00. Same with electronic products. Our relationship with CED began well before Mainland China absorbed Hong Kong. We have been very satisfied with the quality of their products, appreciate CEDs continuous efforts toward new product innovation, their support of customer service, and plan to continue dealing with CED for the forseeable future. Same with Royal case. We try dilligently to support American manufacturers whenever possible, balanced with offering our customers a quality product at an affordable price. It can be like "A snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor".

I have NO gripe with Dillon!!! In many instances we have NO viable choice.

And Dillon does all it can to give us Quality stuff at a reasonable price...including making all parts possible in the USA.

Jim

+1

[Vlad]

When We export as much to China as we import ....I will shut up.

Jim

Hmm Jim .. a trade deficit isn't always a bad thing. At the end of the day it means that we are handing them more bits of paper and less physical wealth for less bits of paper and more physical wealth. Keep in mind that what a trade deficit means is that we get more stuff then we give to other people, money is after all a bit of a fictional character in this play.

[Matt P.]

Plus, consider all the profits being made as we mark up products we make or buy in China and the jobs it produces here and the taxes we pay.

If you think of the world as one big company, The USA could be called the engineering, sales and marketing. China, Thailand, phillipines could be called the manufacturing, assembly. Japan can also be considered as an Engineering and marketing country as well. There are many Japanese companies that have relocated their factories to China Mainland.

What would happen if all countries only bought products from their own nation?

Again, I am not for or against China. It just makes sense for certain business activities to take place in other regions.

I remember a few years back where the Honda Accord was the most American made car meaning, it had the most american made parts in it. Funny how a japanese car was the most american.

Just my opinions here. Please no bashing!

[JFD]

Dillon is quite correct. The only decent US made digital scale will set you back at least $500. Pay less than that and you are buying garbage. Of course I don't believe any digital scale with a plastic housing is worth buying based on past experience in a lab.

[AikiDale]

Speaking of China and lead; anyone know where to buy cheap Chinese bullets, preferably JHP?

[GmanCdp]

i'm just melting my grand kids mattel toys as we speak..........

[Coolduckboy]

The world is Becoming Flat. They got a Billion freakin people over there so what do you expect companies to do when they need products produced.

[ima45dv8]

Since this thread is already drifting off the table....

Dillon, could you maybe enlighten us as to the one-year warranty decision with the xx1050's? I'm just curious how that came to be. As Chuck mentioned, I suspect most of them are used in a private environment rather than in a commercial enterprise. Or is that wrong?

Mine have been mostly error free and I don't expect to need a repair any time soon (insert 'knocking on wood' soundtrack), but it would be nice to have the same No BS Lifetime warranty on that series, too.

Have y'all ever considered selling an 'extended warranty' for them, or raising the price to cover the Lifetime scenario?

I'll stop now since a fool can ask more questions than a wide man can answer....

[Huston in Austin]

To continue the drift, I'm actually trying to sell a machine tool to a company so they can bring the work back from China. The machinist I'm working with figures, on paper so far, they can save around 100k in the first year by doing the machining themselves. I just need them to sign the p.o.

[BrianH]

.....but 99% of all users won't pay $200 for dial calipers when the Chinese-made ones do essentially the same job, at similar quality, for $28.00.

And that's EXACTLY how they are going to beat us at our own game. Nothing we can do about it now....

[AikiDale]

So when the Chinese get too wealthy to make stuff will they farm it out to Africa or South America first? You think maybe there is a trend here?

[dillon]

Corporate Dillon has no valid way to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial users on any of the equipment we sell. On the 1050/Super 1050, if incorrectly adjusted it can be very easy to trash shellplates primarily, but some of the priming parts as well. It is not recommended as a first machine for anyone. None of what we deem to be "designed for commercial use" machines, the RL1000, RL1050 or Super 1050 have ever had a lifetime warranty. We sell reloading equipment, but we aren't here to subsidize the ammo makers for their wear and tear from normal use, let alone the abuse and lack of maintenance they see. In commercial hands, these machines are operated 8-10 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week. If reasonably maintained, a Super 1050 should have a life of over 3 million rounds. When the 1050 was first introduced, the manual included a warranty card that had to be signed and returned stating the the purchaser understood and agreed to the one year warranty.When the RL1050 first came out we seldom adhered to the printed warranty constraints, as we wanted to see what people broke and how they broke it. After a few years it was decided that almost all broken parts were due to misadjustment or operator abuse. It was then decided to enforce the warranty more strictly.

I don't ever see us offering an extended or lifetime warranty option on the Super 1050. This machine is not for the well-meaning beginner, and it can quickly get very expensive to subsidize their learning curve. The limited warranty theoretically forces people to treat the machine a little bit better -although you can't always tell this by the condition of the machines sent in for work! The amount of non-maintenance and abuse we see inflicted on these machines makes it unlikely we will ever alter the warranty on them.